[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
Ron Van Putte
vanputte at cox.net
Mon May 11 10:58:04 AKDT 2009
PLEASE stop mentioning the 2 of 2 + slow roll reversed. I still have
nightmares about that maneuver and we don't fly it any more.
Ron
On May 11, 2009, at 1:46 PM, John Pavlick wrote:
> Not confusion - just a few different things going on at once. :)
> The original discussion was on putting a 3 horizontal roll
> "maneuver" into the Intermediate sequence where there is currently
> a 2-roll maneuver. This led to a reference to the older sequences
> that had 3-roll and even 3-loop maneuvers in the lower classes. I
> tried to prove my point: an Intermediate pilot may have a problem
> doing 3 nice, well controlled rolls without breaking the box on a
> turnaround unless the turnarounds where properly chosen to provide
> more room. I did this by pointing out the fact that I've seen many
> Masters pilots have trouble with the 2 of 2 + slow roll reversed
> (it looks rushed). Not the same maneuver but the same basic
> problem: it's easy to get into a rushed situation if you're not
> careful.
>
> And remember, this whole thing started out with a simple question:
> "Is the Masters schedule too long?" LOL
>
> John Pavlick
>
> --- On Mon, 5/11/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote:
> From: George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 6:19 PM
>
> John,
>
> I think there is some confusion here.
>
> I can't find any reference to three consecutive rolls in the curent
> Master's schedule, however, there is a three roll opposite in P-09.
>
> The maneuver currently being considered was in the old Intermediate
> schedule and was three rolls performed consecutively, no reversals,
> just keep it constantly rotating
> until the completion of the third element.
>
> Most individuals used to set up their airframes so that full
> aileron deflection would result in the airplane performing three
> rolls in approximately five seconds. This roll rate was
> slow enough to allow a normal human being to keep up with the
> thought processes required to input the necessary corrections
> required to result in the roll appearing axial.
>
> At this roll rate, an airplane traveling approximately 60 mph used
> up somewhere in the neighborhood of 440 feet of horizontal travel.
> The distance between the poles at
> 150 meters is around 1575 feet, so you can see that this leaves
> about 567 feet before you even started the roll to get set up and a
> similar recovery distance after roll
> completion.
>
> Now I realize that the rule book says that it may be appropriate to
> fly a smaller model in closer ( I think it references 140-130
> meters) so the distance shortens significantly
> as you move in, but even at just 100 meters the breathing room on
> each end is still over 300 feet, so it should be apparrent that
> space is really not a limiting factor.
>
> With regards the three rolls opposite in P-09, it's a totally
> different bag of worms. For me, it requires that I slow the rate
> down even further because my old brain can't keep
> up with all those reversing inputs, so for me, this one uses quite
> a bit of the box.
>
> Jim, correct me on stuff I screwed up here.
>
> Georgie
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Pavlick
> To: General pattern discussion
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> What schedule are we talking about? I thought it was the Masters
> schedule.
>
> John Pavlick
> http://www.idseng.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George W.Kennie
> To: General pattern discussion
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> John,
>
> Remember, the maneuver is performed after a previous box exit. So,
> you enter the box, have all day to set up for it, and you're only
> doing 1 & 1/2 rolls either side of center. I've seen guys use
> this much space doing the current 2 point with a significant
> hesitation.
>
> Archie is right on the money. That's the reason I use the old, old
> Intermediate schedule to train newbies. If I can get 'em thru this
> thing, then the current schedules are duck soup for them. It's
> like practicing the P-09 and then going to a contest and flying
> Sportsman.
>
> G.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Pavlick
> To: General pattern discussion
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 10:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> Georgie,
> Did you ever see anyone REALLY grease that maneuver? I haven't. It
> ALWAYS looks rushed. And these are Masters pilots. Big difference
> between them and Intermediate pilots. The only way it would work is
> if both turnarounds (before and after the maneuver) were something
> like a stall turn or a half square loop. Anything else would be
> tough for an Intermediate pilot.
>
> John Pavlick
> http://www.idseng.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George W.Kennie
> To: General pattern discussion
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> Isn't it amazing that we have combination maneuvers like Two of Two
> folowed by a Slow Roll opposite all on one line, including entry
> and exit lines, and people still think that you can't get three
> consecutive rolls in the box.
>
> Stymies me !
>
> Who else?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Glen Watson
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> Chuck,
>
>
> In the early nineties when I got started in pattern the Sportsman
> sequence now known as Intermediate had three rolls. I flew 2cycle
> then (Saphire, LA-1) and had no problem fitting the maneuver in the
> box as well as centering. I believe this built many early skill
> sets that have helped me in the long run over the years.
>
>
> I’m of the opinion pattern sequences should present challenges to
> ones current skill set. Without a challenge why do pattern at all.
>
>
> Glen
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hochhalter
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:15 AM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> Anyone notice how much airpace 3 rolls takes in FAI... I don’t
> think they lower class has the box management skills to fit 3 rolls
> into the box, let alone be ready to center them.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> From: ronlock at comcast.net
>
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 9:25 PM
>
> To: General pattern discussion
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> Re comments below-
> I believe part of reason the current Intermediate sequence has two
> rolls, and not three, is-
> Figuring two rolls are challenge and training enough for most
> intermediate pilots -
> And two is enough for judging- Particularly, if you see two going
> badly, not many of us
> want to see a third.
>
> Also below - having to move out of Sportsman after first year
> because of beating 4 other pilots -
> That is already fixed. The 2009 rule "..flier must move out of
> Sportsman class at the end of he calendar year of his/her second or
> subsequent year of participation if he/she places first or second
> and above at least 4 other fliers..."
>
> Ron Lockhart
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
> To: " General pattern discussion " <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 10:03:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> I’ve been flying intermediate for about 3 years going on 4. The
> two rolls are still kicking my you know what. I can do one slow
> roll and one 4 pt roll but not two consecutive rolls. I’m certain
> that the average advance pilot would really have trouble with 3
> rolls. I see a lot of intermediate, advanced and sometimes even
> masters pilots almost loose airplanes on the horizontal rolling
> maneuvers. They shouldn’t be underestimated.
>
>
> I agree with Mark, lets make advancement at all levels a
> guideline. I had to move up from sportsman to intermediate after
> my first year in sportsman because I beat 4 other pilots. I was
> flying a Kaos and the other pilots were all flying their 1st
> contests with trainers. They had no chance. In the end I’m glade
> I moved up but at the time it made me real nervous. I was so
> determined to fly pattern that I decided to give it the old college
> try in intermediate.
>
>
> I think Advance could use a few more maneuvers that exit inverted.
> Otherwise, I believe all the sequences are pretty good.
>
>
> Ron
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:38 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> There is a provision in the current rule set to accomodate these
> situations, see 8.1.2 of the competition regulations....
>
>
> Richard
>
>
> From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 3:30:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> Bob,
>
> I understand completely, I moved up to advanced, then my daughter
> got sick and I've been to one contest in 4 years. My flying has
> regressed, and my confidence along with it.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
> To: " General pattern discussion " <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 2:52:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> I know you’re joking some Bob, but I think you’re actually a great
> example of someone that was able to fly a lot, and progressed
> nicely through the system, but then when you got to Masters…a time
> when you really need to practice even more to be competitive, your
> job suddenly changed, home life became more complex, and you’re
> lucky to fly 10 practice flights a year outside of contests. Your
> experience and skill would allow you to be competitive in Advanced,
> without dominating and likely have a lot more fun being a spoiler
> to that crowd, rather than trying to fly masters without hardly
> even knowing the pattern.
>
>
> You’re the perfect candidate for someone that should be able to
> choose where they fly (which pattern) and have the most enjoyment.
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 2:40 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> Hey, I resemble that remark . . . . . . .
>
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
>
>
>
> From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Cc: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey at suddenlink.net>
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 12:17:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> This is all pretty interesting. From my perspective, I didn't
> really care who beat me when I was in intermediate or advanced. I
> just knew that I was seeing the skill level necessary to win. While
> it's nice to win a trophy in the lower classes, I understood I
> wasn't competing against the best pilots anyway. From what I've
> seen there is a huge variation of talent within a class anyway.
> I've seen Masters pilots fly that wouldn't win in advanced if they
> bumped back down (maybe not even in intermediate). People move up
> for all kinds of reasons unrelated to skill level. It's also
> interesting that we talk about using each class to improve our
> flying until we get to Masters, then it appears nobody wants to
> improve to FAI.
>
>
>
>
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