[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

Wed Mar 4 03:23:59 AKST 2009

You also save the judges time which is important in a large contest.

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J Shu
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:37 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

We have 8 minutes. As of now we finish our flights after the 7 min mark. To
get scored on t/o and landing, we would need to try... and also take the
time on landing.

Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Stuart Chale <mailto:schale at optonline.net>  

To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:11 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

You (FAI) still have to take off and land.  How much longer would it take to
make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do now.  I suspect
the landing would be the same as you still have to slow down to landing
speed :)  The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds more to fly smoothly to 2
meters before turning somewhere?  Keep the time limit as it is on the flying
portion and just score the takeoff and landings 1 to 10.
Done :)

J Shu wrote: 

Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and currently
the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have
enough time unless the time limit was raised.

Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Budd Engineering <mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com>  

To: General pattern <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  discussion 

Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class?  With
the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the
shortest sequence.  Masters in particular takes way longer.

Jerry 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com> wrote:

I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern
now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high
take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At
least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern
planes, but scale planes!

I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and
landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line
it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before
the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for
landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next
county so I won the flying bets. 

FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time
for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on
take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie
points for the taking. 

Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: George W.Kennie <mailto:geobet4 at verizon.net>  

To: General pattern <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  discussion 

Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

There you have it from THE  expert !!!!!!!!!!!!

----- Original Message ----- 

From: J Shu <mailto:jshulman at cfl.rr.com>  

To: General pattern <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  discussion 

Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive
of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and
landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just
because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe
take-off or landing.

Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Tim Taylor <mailto:timsautopro at yahoo.com>  

To: General pattern <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  discussion 

Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and
center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then
they can make a 180 to landing.

Tim

--- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote:

From: George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM

I think that dropping the scoring of  TOs and LGs with the intent of
reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be
individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance,
ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think
of individuals who would include me in the group.

G. 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: J N Hiller <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>  

To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  discussion 

Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have
aborted landings more than once.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs 

I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings
should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the
pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches
pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted
had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at
risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head
at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing
when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also
seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after
lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and
the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway.
At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this,
anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being
judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. 

And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate
classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several
years. 

I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. 

JM2CW 

Bob R. 

--- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote: 

I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to
a non-skill element. 

All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we
demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control
over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further
requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that
there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required
by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the
airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and
confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint.

G.  

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