[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs

Matthew Frederick mjfrederick at cox.net
Tue Mar 3 19:18:56 AKST 2009


Notice, I said kind-of because I know there are guys who represent countries that hardly fly...

Matt
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Matthew Frederick 
  To: General pattern discussion 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs


  From what I've seen most F3A competitors do some pretty sweet landings anyway... Makes me sick whenever I watch Bryan Hebert land... Hell, when he's practicing for the Nats he only cuts about a 50x15 rectangle in our runway so he has enough room to work (he's the only one who flies during the week)... But I completely understand where Jason's coming from on the time limits, plus at that level the landing and takeoffs are kind-of a given...

  Matt
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: J Shu 
    To: General pattern discussion 
    Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:36 PM
    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs


    We have 8 minutes. As of now we finish our flights after the 7 min mark. To get scored on t/o and landing, we would need to try... and also take the time on landing.

    Regards,
    Jason
    www.shulmanaviation.com
    www.composite-arf.com

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Stuart Chale 
      To: General pattern discussion 
      Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:11 PM
      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs


      You (FAI) still have to take off and land.  How much longer would it take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do now.  I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to slow down to landing speed :)  The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere?  Keep the time limit as it is on the flying portion and just score the takeoff and landings 1 to 10.
      Done :)

      J Shu wrote: 
        Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised.

        Regards,
        Jason
        www.shulmanaviation.com
        www.composite-arf.com

          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Budd Engineering 
          To: General pattern discussion 
          Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM
          Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs


          Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class?  With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence.  Masters in particular takes way longer.


          Jerry 

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com> wrote:


            I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes!

            I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets. 

            FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking. 

            Regards,
            Jason
            www.shulmanaviation.com
            www.composite-arf.com

              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: George W.Kennie 
              To: General pattern discussion 
              Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs


              There you have it from THE  expert !!!!!!!!!!!!



                ----- Original Message ----- 
                From: J Shu 
                To: General pattern discussion 
                Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM
                Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs


                I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing.

                Regards,
                Jason
                www.shulmanaviation.com
                www.composite-arf.com

                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                  From: Tim Taylor 
                  To: General pattern discussion 
                  Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs


                        I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.
                        Tim

                        --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote:

                          From: George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net>
                          Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
                          To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
                          Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM


                          I think that dropping the scoring of  TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group.

                          G. 




                            ----- Original Message ----- 
                            From: J N Hiller 
                            To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion 
                            Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM
                            Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs


                            You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once.

                            Jim


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards
                          Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM
                          To: General pattern discussion
                          Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs 


                                I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation. 


                                And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years. 


                                I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC. 


                                JM2CW 


                                Bob R. 



                                --- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote: 


                                I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. 



                                All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint.


                                G.  


                               



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