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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You also save the judges time which is
important in a large contest.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>J Shu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:37
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We have 8 minutes. As of now we finish our
flights after the 7 min mark. To get scored on t/o and landing, we would need
to try... and also take the time on landing.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid navy 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:schale@optonline.net" title="schale@optonline.net">Stuart Chale</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday,
March 03, 2009 9:11 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How
much longer would it take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what
you do now. I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to
slow down to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds
more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? Keep the time
limit as it is on the flying portion and just score the takeoff and landings 1
to 10.<br>
Done :)<br>
<br>
J Shu wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Because it takes time to make a perfect
take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after
the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com" moz-do-not-send=true>www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.composite-arf.com" moz-do-not-send=true>www.composite-arf.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid navy 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:50%'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jerry@buddengineering.com" title="jerry@buddengineering.com"
moz-do-not-send=true>Budd Engineering</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>General pattern
discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday,
March 03, 2009 12:56 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than
any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly
Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular
takes way longer.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Jerry <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" <<a
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com" moz-do-not-send=true>jshulman@cfl.rr.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just
going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like
Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the
centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I
remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I used to always lose bets with my brother
for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane
for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift
the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do
the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended
up in the next county so I won the flying bets. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs
and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be
scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then
these should be freebie points for the taking. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com" moz-do-not-send=true>www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.composite-arf.com" moz-do-not-send=true>www.composite-arf.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid navy 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:50%'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" title="geobet4@verizon.net"
moz-do-not-send=true>George W.Kennie</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>General pattern
discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday,
March 03, 2009 8:46 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=5 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
18.0pt;font-family:Arial'>There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:50%'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com" title="jshulman@cfl.rr.com"
moz-do-not-send=true>J Shu</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>General pattern
discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday,
March 02, 2009 6:06 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I'd much rather see take-offs and landings
be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a
proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not
a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot
try and make a safe take-off or landing.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com" moz-do-not-send=true>www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.composite-arf.com" moz-do-not-send=true>www.composite-arf.com</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid navy 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:50%'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" title="timsautopro@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send=true>Tim Taylor</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>General pattern
discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, March
02, 2009 4:53 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add
one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the
box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Tim<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"
moz-do-not-send=true>geobet4@verizon.net</a>></span></i></span></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>From: George W.Kennie <<a
href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net" moz-do-not-send=true>geobet4@verizon.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<br>
To: "<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=yiv380045516>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial'>I think that dropping the scoring
of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally
effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience
difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter
how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include
me in the group.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial'>G.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;-moz-background-clip: -moz-initial;
-moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;-moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;
background-position-x:0%;background-position-y:50%'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target="_blank"
title="jnhiller@earthlink.net" moz-do-not-send=true>J N Hiller</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com" moz-do-not-send=true>bob@toprudder.com</a> ; <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>General pattern
discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday,
March 02, 2009 3:13 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
class=emailstyle15><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You make a good argument for dropping
takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once.</span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
class=emailstyle15><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim</span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send=true>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 02, 2009
10:28 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Landings and Takeoffs</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=578
style='width:433.5pt;margin-left:.5in'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:inherit'>I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think
takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put
the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad
takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when
they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers.
At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at
risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my
caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the
pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person
in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the
plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by
kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off
the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted
and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a
bad situation.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:inherit'>And, no, niether situation involved someone in the
Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had
flown pattern for several years. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:inherit'>I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in
IMAC.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:inherit'>JM2CW</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:inherit'>Bob R.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:inherit'><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"
moz-do-not-send=true>geobet4@verizon.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div id=yiv297695904>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I don't feel the same way as
John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:.5in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:.5in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>All aerobatic
maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a
judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the
airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires
intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there
are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by
the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe
back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident
control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:.5in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>G. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<div>
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color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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</blockquote>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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