[NSRCA-discussion] Weight

Thu Jun 4 08:39:47 AKDT 2009

You are right 'G-Power' is totally different. I've ballasted both scale and
pattern airplanes to try to offset flight deficiencies and enhance
performance in wind, unsuccessfully. Each airplane / design seams to have an
optimum weight usually near the easy minimum build weight. The problems I've
experienced were design deficiencies (need to fire that guy). I think the
real culprit is weight in the extremities such as wing tips and tail. Heavy
extremities require more energy to check wind induced disruption as well as
starting and stopping recovery commands, crisp and rapid response.
Centralized weight with or without ballast directly contributes to the
'feel' of the airplane in the air.
Design selection appropriate for the schedule to be flown, setup and flight
trimming are more important.
Jim Hiller

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Matthew
Frederick
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 8:24 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight

My patriot is a half pound under weight
and at a recent contest where winds were
very high I had a distinct advantage due
to design and setup. The heavier planes
had no advantage whatsoever. In fact due
to the size of their fuselages they were at
a disadvantage. Comparing a pattern plane
to a sailplane is naive at best.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 4, 2009, at 8:53 AM, krishlan fitzsimmons <
homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com <mailto:homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> > wrote:
It penetrates the wind better. I wouldn't think of flying and of my
sailplanes unballasted in the wind. They don't "fly" as good.
Chris

--- On Thu, 6/4/09, Matthew Frederick < mjfrederick at cox.net
<mailto:mjfrederick at cox.net> > wrote:

From: Matthew Frederick < mjfrederick at cox.net <mailto:mjfrederick at cox.net> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 6:49 AM
A heavier plane doesn't necessarily fly
better in the wind. The design is a more
important factor in windy conditions than
anything else.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 3, 2009, at 8:36 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons <
homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com <mailto:homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> > wrote:
Where it isn't fair is in takeoff weight, or even landing weight. A glow
plane can put a 40 ounce tank in if they want, they could fly at 13 lbs if
they want to help ballast the plane for heavy wind conditions. They could
land at 12 lbs.  Where does a 11 lb weight matter with that? Doesn't seem
right to me. Does this mean I can add a fuel tank to my 10.5 lb Electric and
ballast it where I want it???? It would help me tremendously at the nats in
the wind!!! This argument is silly. There should be a takeoff weight rule.
If you fly glow, and your plane is right at 11 lbs, and you can't make the
takeoff rule weight, then I guess you would be in the same boat as the E
guys are now.. The only people that seem to have a problem with change,
mostly seem to be the glow guys.
IMO, there is no advantage to either in flight. I world class flyer could
beat us all with either.

For those that think the size would increase with a weight change, then go
to a takeoff weight rule. I doubt it would happen then.

Chris

--- On Wed, 6/3/09, J N Hiller < jnhiller at earthlink.net
<mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net> > wrote:

From: J N Hiller < jnhiller at earthlink.net <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 5:02 PM
OH not me. I would vote against a weight increase. I'm not a high tech guy
and fly pattern on the cheap. This is still mostly about flying and
considering my flying ability I don't feel I can buy enough points at any
price to justify it, besides I like to build. I fly a home made 1.20 size
72" wood airplane around 9 pounds with maybe an all up cost of about $500
(excellent pattern trainer in all classes).
I might be able to make weight with a 2 ci glow now. I just thought that if
the weight limit was removed we would see 12-14 pound airplanes with big gas
burners (IMAC crossover) and I would probably indulge, and yes a single 2m
wing will easily carry the weight of a 50 cc but what about a DA 100? Twins
run smooth.
The real cost is traveling in both time away from home and $$, even for us
non-competitive old guys, always has been, but I can't kick the habit.
Besides pattern fliers make good friends.
If I wasn't flying pattern I would be flying IMAC. Probably will anyway.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ]On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:24 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight

Jim,

Monoplanes are at 74" span now, and about 900 squares because that is where
the current schedules have pushed the designs to.  The wings don't need to
be any bigger for the 11 lb weight limit.  But at 74" and 900 squares, there
is plenty of room to grow the monoplane bigger if the weight limit is
increased.

The bottom line doesn't change - bigger bipe, bigger monoplane, bigger any
plane will increase costs.

If you think pattern needs more cost and complexity, whether it be biplanes
or monoplanes, submit a proposal.

Regards,

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ] On Behalf Of J N Hiller
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:03 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight

A monoplane will have higher wing loading. How high is too high?
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ]On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:57 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight

<96 db, <2M, <11 lbs, and it is legal.  Your challenge is to meet those
specs with whatever equipment you choose.

Raise any of those limits, and the cost and complexity of pattern goes up.
If you think what pattern needs is more cost and complexity, submit the
proposal.  And as Duane notes, the new breed of monoplanes will obsolete
your DA-50 Bipe.

Regards,

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ] On Behalf Of J N Hiller
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:46 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight

I was thinking pattern legal DA-50.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ]On Behalf Of Duane Beck
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:06 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight

<http://www.mini-iac.com/> <http://www.mini-iac.com/>
http://www.mini-iac.com/
DA-50's and larger biplanes very common.  Have at it.  :-)

Duane

----- Original Message -----
From: "J N Hiller" < jnhiller at earthlink.net <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>
>
To: jpavlick at idseng.com <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com> , "General pattern
discussion"
< nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2009 12:12:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight

Interesting discussion. I always felt the weight limit replaced the
displacement limit prevent the use of very large engines.

Remove it now and we will see DA-50 or larger biplanes. I have wanted to
build one for a long time.

Bring it on.

Jim Hiller
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