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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>You are
right 'G-Power' is totally different. I've ballasted both scale and pattern
airplanes to try to offset flight deficiencies and enhance performance in wind,
unsuccessfully. Each airplane / design seams to have an optimum weight usually
near the easy minimum build weight. The problems I've experienced were design
deficiencies (need to fire that guy). I think the real culprit is weight in the
extremities such as wing tips and tail. Heavy extremities require more energy
to check wind induced disruption as well as starting and stopping recovery
commands, crisp and rapid response. Centralized weight with or without ballast directly
contributes to the 'feel' of the airplane in the air. </span></font></span><span
class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Design
selection appropriate for the schedule to be flown, setup and flight trimming are
more important. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle20><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Matthew Frederick<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 04, 2009 8:24
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>My patriot is
a half pound under weight</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>and at a
recent contest where winds were</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>very high I
had a distinct advantage due</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>to design and
setup. The heavier planes </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>had no
advantage whatsoever. In fact due</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>to the size
of their fuselages they were at </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>a disadvantage.
Comparing a pattern plane</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>to a
sailplane is naive at best.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
On Jun 4, 2009, at 8:53 AM, krishlan fitzsimmons <<a
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=530 style='width:397.5pt;
mso-cellspacing:0in;margin-left:1.0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>It
penetrates the wind better. I wouldn't think of flying and of my sailplanes
unballasted in the wind. They don't "fly" as good. </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><i><font size=3 color="#0000bf" face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#0000BF;font-weight:
bold'>Chris </span></font></i></b></em><font color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-family:inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Thu, 6/4/09, Matthew Frederick <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">mjfrederick@cox.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:
inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'><br>
From: Matthew Frederick <<a href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">mjfrederick@cox.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 6:49 AM</span></font><font color=black
face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
inherit;color:black'>
<div id=yiv600423729>A heavier plane doesn't necessarily fly</span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
inherit;color:black'>better in the wind. The design is a more</span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
inherit;color:black'>important factor in windy conditions than </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
inherit;color:black'>anything else.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-family:inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'><br>
On Jun 3, 2009, at 8:36 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons <<a
href="/mc/compose?to=homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com"></a><a
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:
inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 style='mso-cellspacing:0in;
margin-left:39.75pt;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;font-style:inherit;
font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:
inherit;font-size-adjust: inherit;font-stretch: inherit'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>Where
it isn't fair is in takeoff weight, or even landing weight. A glow plane
can put a 40 ounce tank in if they want, they could fly at 13 lbs if they
want to help ballast the plane for heavy wind conditions. They could land
at 12 lbs. Where does a 11 lb weight matter with that? Doesn't seem
right to me. Does this mean I can add a fuel tank to my 10.5 lb Electric
and ballast it where I want it???? It would help me tremendously at the
nats in the wind!!! This argument is silly. There should be a takeoff weight
rule. <br>
If you fly glow, and your plane is right at 11 lbs, and you can't make the
takeoff rule weight, then I guess you would be in the same boat as the E
guys are now.. The only people that seem to have a problem with change,
mostly seem to be the glow guys. <br>
IMO, there is no advantage to either in flight. I world class flyer could
beat us all with either. <br>
<br>
For those that think the size would increase with a weight change, then go
to a takeoff weight rule. I doubt it would happen then. <br>
<br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-family:inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><i><font size=3 color="#0000bf"
face="Comic Sans MS"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";
color:#0000BF;font-weight:bold'>Chris </span></font></i></b></em><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=inherit><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Wed, 6/3/09, J N Hiller <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a
href="/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel=nofollow
ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"></a><a
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black face=inherit><span style='font-family:
inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
inherit;color:black'><br>
From: J N Hiller <<a href="/mc/compose?to=jnhiller@earthlink.net"
target="_blank" rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"></a><a
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"></a><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 5:02 PM</span></font><font color=black
face=inherit><span style='font-family:inherit;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=inherit><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
inherit;color:black'>OH not me. I would vote against a weight increase. I'm
not a high tech guy<br>
and fly pattern on the cheap. This is still mostly about flying and<br>
considering my flying ability I don't feel I can buy enough points at any<br>
price to justify it, besides I like to build. I fly a home made 1.20 size<br>
72" wood airplane around 9 pounds with maybe an all up cost of about
$500<br>
(excellent pattern trainer in all classes).<br>
I might be able to make weight with a 2 ci glow now. I just thought that if<br>
the weight limit was removed we would see 12-14 pound airplanes with big
gas<br>
burners (IMAC crossover) and I would probably indulge, and yes a single 2m<br>
wing will easily carry the weight of a 50 cc but what about a DA 100? Twins<br>
run smooth.<br>
The real cost is traveling in both time away from home and $$, even for us<br>
non-competitive old guys, always has been, but I can't kick the habit.<br>
Besides pattern fliers make good friends.<br>
If I wasn't flying pattern I would be flying IMAC. Probably will anyway.<br>
Jim<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank" rel=nofollow></a><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank" rel=nofollow></a><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On
Behalf Of Dave<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:24 PM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
<br>
Jim,<br>
<br>
Monoplanes are at 74" span now, and about 900 squares because that is
where<br>
the current schedules have pushed the designs to. The wings don't
need to<br>
be any bigger for the 11 lb weight limit. But at 74" and 900
squares, there<br>
is plenty of room to grow the monoplane bigger if the weight limit is<br>
increased.<br>
<br>
The bottom line doesn't change - bigger bipe, bigger monoplane, bigger any<br>
plane will increase costs.<br>
<br>
If you think pattern needs more cost and complexity, whether it be biplanes<br>
or monoplanes, submit a proposal.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
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On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:03 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
<br>
A monoplane will have higher wing loading. How high is too high?<br>
Jim<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
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Behalf Of Dave<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:57 AM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
<br>
<96 db, <2M, <11 lbs, and it is legal. Your challenge is to
meet those<br>
specs with whatever equipment you choose.<br>
<br>
Raise any of those limits, and the cost and complexity of pattern goes up.<br>
If you think what pattern needs is more cost and complexity, submit the<br>
proposal. And as Duane notes, the new breed of monoplanes will
obsolete<br>
your DA-50 Bipe.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
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target="_blank" rel=nofollow></a><a
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On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:46 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
<br>
I was thinking pattern legal DA-50.<br>
Jim<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
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target="_blank" rel=nofollow></a><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On
Behalf Of Duane Beck<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:06 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.mini-iac.com/" target="_blank" rel=nofollow></a><a
href="http://www.mini-iac.com/" target="_blank" rel=nofollow></a><a
href="http://www.mini-iac.com/">http://www.mini-iac.com/</a><br>
DA-50's and larger biplanes very common. Have at it. :-)<br>
<br>
Duane<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "J N Hiller" <<a
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href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="/mc/compose?to=jpavlick@idseng.com" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow></a><a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</a>,
"General pattern discussion"<br>
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Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2009 12:12:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight<br>
<br>
<br>
Interesting discussion. I always felt the weight limit replaced the<br>
displacement limit prevent the use of very large engines.<br>
<br>
Remove it now and we will see DA-50 or larger biplanes. I have wanted to<br>
build one for a long time.<br>
<br>
Bring it on.<br>
<br>
Jim Hiller<br>
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