[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Derek Koopowitz
derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
Sat Jan 31 09:14:20 AKST 2009
The AMA has indicated to us that this will be considered - it will
definitely be a rules proposal if everyone agrees.
_____
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Budd
Engineering
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:51 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Now that Dave Brown is gone we should try again.
Budd Engineering
jerry at buddengineering.com
http://www.buddengineering.com
On Jan 31, 2009, at 9:18 AM, Gene Maurice wrote:
A BIG difference is that the IMAC schedules are an addendum to the rulebook
and DON'T have to go thru a rules cycle to change. We've tried this and
failed to get it past the AMA.
Gene Maurice
Plano, TX
AMA 3408 NSRCA 877
PACSS.sgmservice.com
gene.maurice at sgmservice.com
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of billglaze
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:13 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Sorry, Ed:
I put it wrongly, and I guess pretty obscurely, also. What I meant was,
when you and I were on the BOD of IMAC, all classes were regarded equally;
when sequences changed, they were changed across the board, with all classes
receiving equal attention. Their philosophy remains the same; all classes
are equally regarded, and new sequences installed annually. As far as I
know that is still the bedrock of IMAC.
Bill Glaze
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Alt <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com>
To: General pattern <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> discussion
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Hi Bill:
I wasn't aware that IMAC isn't all of the sequences annually anymore. When
did that change?
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: billglaze <mailto:billglaze at bellsouth.net>
To: General pattern <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> discussion
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Also, Ed, you'll remember when we served together, ALL the classes were
regarded equally, all receiving new sequences on a regular basis; not just
the Unlimited contestants.. Bill Glaze
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com> Alt
To: homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com ; General pattern
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> discussion ; jpavlick at idseng.com
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
I think that a lot of the appeal of IMAC is due to the airplanes that are
available. Another factor that has appeal is that sequences are different
every year, and also, the unknown sequences at most every contest is popular
as well. I flew nothing but IMAC from '97 through '03 and it was fun while
it lasted. After a while, I couldn't live with the changes they were making
and I ended up here. Both IMAC and Pattern have been great fun and great
learning experiences, but I do have to say that I have learned more in
Pattern overall. I also enjoy it more.
I think maybe it boils down to a few subtle things that are just different
in people. I am pretty much a purist, and what drove me away from IMAC was
when they ditched the aerobatic box (except in theory), when they decided
that factoring centering into scoring was unfair, and when they purposely
added subjective scoring. It just grated at me and I knew I could not enjoy
it any longer after they did that. Pattern isn't like that, and that's why
I like it so much better. It allows me to tolerate the idiosyncrasies of
glow vs. gas, allows me to put up with not being able to see a smaller model
as well, but I do it because I like the way the event is structured. There
are great people and good friends in both events, but I do what I do because
it fits me better. We can tweak our website and restructure our
publication, and it's all good stuff, but at the end of the day, you're
going to do what you do because it fits you best. My $.02 FWIW.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: krishlan <mailto:homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> fitzsimmons
To: General pattern <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> discussion ;
jpavlick at idseng.com
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Well said John..
On another note, didn't this start out as a "please take an online vote"
email.
On even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be
interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies have
made a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front yards. Kids are
really into the foamies and the freestyles because they are fun, and
impressive. We lack this fun type of flying in their minds. (Not to me, 3d
is somewhat boring to me, except for foamies)
As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the market flooded with
$400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and other fields locally
have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that would buy one. They
have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the field, people ask me
how much, and where can they get one. When I tell em how much, their face
drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like Hester. He's on the right
track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger magazines, how many pattern
planes do you see in those ads?
Chris
--- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
From: John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM
Jim,
Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there is
almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this. Part of
the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas where you're
allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an organized contest. My
state pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems to be plenty of room for
shopping centers and "retirement communities" however.
Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people and
make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND Pattern.
Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others simply don't want
to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but the point is they need
to know about them. That's where I think Patttern and the NSRCA suffers the
most. People simply don't know that we exist. We need to increase our
visibility if we want to attract new members. We DON'T need to change
anything with how we fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to attract new
people. All we need to do is let them know we're here and that they can fly
with us if they want to. No pressure to join. Just take your basic sport
model to a contest and fly a few rounds in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio
or airplane. Don't worry about the weight or size. Just show up. If we want
to grow Patttern, that's one of the things that we need to do If printed
copies of the K-Factor at local hobby shops will help with that cause (it
just might), then send me a box so I can drop them off. :)
John Pavlick
BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a club
member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew that
Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG hiatus) I built a
new airplane, started going to contests and joined the NSRCA.
--- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
wrote:
From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM
JN - there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the traceable
history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit on it
something important other day stating something to the effect that, ". if
you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own." (forgive me if it
wasn't Jay or I misquoted). Pattern and IMAC are totally different in many
ways and being that I'm involved in the District/Leadership of each, I'll
list a few in no particular order:
1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC: in a 50 person contest,
there are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40 persons spread almost equally
between the lower classes
2. Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a 20 person
contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread between lower classes
3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a money-making event.
Not so sure for the pattern event.
4. Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC: IMAC changes
sequences yearly and has unknowns flown each contest, all classes except for
Basic. IMAC classes get harder in a hurry. For instance the intermediate
class will have a 90 degree rolling turn in it and numerous snaps rolls,
also a spin. There is no mercy on unknowns. sometimes they are more
difficult than the normal sequence, sometimes easier, sometimes just
different. There is not an expectation that all pilots will reach the
"destination" class. There is no destination class in IMAC.
5. Piloting differences? I find the average IMAC pilot is a fairly
high skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision side of things. You
might watch a OK sequence, but later in the evening see them throwing it
down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of us would dare try. The
Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a higher scoring stall turn and
have better sequence-fundamentals (and positioning), but lack in some of the
other R/C roundness.
6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys "who used to fly pattern" in
them. I've heard it all as to why they stopped flying pattern and here it
is (believe me or not , up to you):
a. Pattern is too political at the top
b. Feeling of Topped out - it didn't matter how much I practiced, I
couldn't improve my scores or beat that one guy
c. Best flights aren't winning rounds
d. Didn't fit in
e. These are opinions range from normal pilots, to "top guys" that only
fly IMAC now
7. Flying/Positioning - I love the pattern way of flying in a box,
with a centerpole - I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of writing sequences with
"sort of left, sort of right" maneuvers. I understand why it is done and
such, but I'd take the box anyday. Flying the box in pattern is its
"own-significant-difficulty" which makes the less complex maneuvers harder
to do. The IMAC way lets them "load-up" each maneuver into a super-complex
deal - very hard to score well I may add too. However, its all part of the
pie.
8. Winning? In pattern, a win means you flew the sequences the best.
This is cool because often you can "beat" a better pilot, by flying the
maneuver you need to know how to do better than the other guys. In IMAC,
usually the "best" pilots wins, because it is a combination of flying the
known and unknown.
9. Planes? Pattern planes fly the best, but are harder to fly well.
Pattern planes are less affected by small changes in atmospheric conditions,
or good/bad engine days - IE -- you almost always have enough power in a
pattern plane regardless of sequence flown. IMAC - totally different.
Humidity (specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of your plane.
Power requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes. For instance,
unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy to move up
without changing equipment. A 40% plane is easier to fly "wings-level", but
the judging penalties are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15
degrees.
10. Organizational view on Judging - I don't know what the NSRCA stance is
on judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on judging programs,
seminars, and creating a national standard for judging. How do they do
this? They fly in people from all around the country for a national-type of
judge certification. These guys then go forth and carry the message.
a. Why do they do this? Because they know that regional differences
and biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an organization. They put
a huge leadership and organizational priority on getting judging right. -
if you know me - you know I like that.
So, there are many, many differences between the two. Personally, I
gravitate towards flying the pattern plane. However, the "competitive"
factors in IMAC are solid too and given the activity around my neck of the
woods, you can't pass it up. So what's the point, I guess the point still
is that the total formula is working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula is not.
What can we take from the differences to tune-up our own game? And
regarding the K-factor - in today's economy it is hard to justify business
decisions that don't break even.
Jim
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
IMAC v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC popularity
can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large colorful high
performance readily available aircraft but mostlyvisibility. Pattern flying
is absent from many local clubs but large aerobatic airplanes are
represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes attract the press and
interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is extremely repetitious and
boring to those not directly involved.
I didn't want to get into this here but I question how many non-pattern
folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a free sample available there
now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is "Pattern" visibility. I
couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when querying aerobatics, RC
aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if some amount of
prior knowledge is needed before an outsider can gain access to pattern
activity.
AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition events or activity
and if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of out of luck. How dose
an outsider become aware of and interested in any competition event without
knowing where to look?
As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been
receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy
machine. The content has for the most part remained about the same; mostly
contest results and district news. It's more of a competition newsletter
with content of interest to those involved and of questionable interest to
outsiders or the mildly interested. There is little seed for growing
interest in any rulebook event on the Internet. It only happens at the local
level with people having fun.
To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair amount of
disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same shrinking pool
of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to participate in what
appears to be a very regimented activity flown near the limit of visibility
for many. Bigger really is better and we (Pattern) is somewhat restricted by
trying to remain compatible with FAI.
I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe our salvation lies in a
free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to our
sport.
Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.
Jim Hiller
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy Newman
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
Jim,
What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California IMAC
contests attract 60-70 pilots.
IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online only
newsletter. Not even a magazine.
Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization that is successful like
that.
They can't be doing anything right they are just IMACers
Just something to think about.
Troy
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