[NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

Wed Jan 28 04:54:02 AKST 2009

Chris,

Thank you for your hard work with the K-Factor.  The quality of the magazine is higher than its been since I've been reading it.  You bring up some thoughts in your posts that I want to discuss. You mention wanting to grow the K-Factor to a magazine with higher distribution and maybe placed in the LHS.  That is sounds nice, but is totally opposite to all print indicators:  New York Times, LA Times, Washington Post, Miami Herald, all report massive circulation drops and revenue "losses".  We just spent a bunch of time on a thread recently about an established R/C magazine going out of the print business.  Print media consumer habits have changed.  Not even Obama can save print media.

Membership because of the K-Factor:  Spending money to print the K-Factor to retain the membership of people who joined only to receive the K-Factor, doesn't sound like a good reason to keep printing the K-Factor.  It seems like precision aerobatics is on the decline or just treading water over the last few years at best.  Addressing that is a different thread though.  What can we expect from this type of member?  Is this the kind of member that is promoting the group, or not actively flying, teaching, training, stuff like that?

You mention this below, "Does Imac have anything but a website and a discussion group? Is that what we want out of the Nsrca?"  

Actually, this would be a fantastic direction for the NSRCA to go.  In District 3, pattern attendance is in serious decline.  In this same geographical area, the IMAC South East, is experiencing habitual contests of 50+ in attendance in these last several years.  Check out www.mini-iac.com and look at the SE Region to get a sense of the number of contests that are already registered.  Equate that to "people" who are out and active in their local clubs, "organizing" their contest effort long before it even makes it onto the website.  This indicates that there is huge support from the R/C public to have IMAC contests at their home fields, and (drum roll please), the "active" IMAC members are out there promoting this at the local club field - shaking hands, getting some momentum going.  IMAC dues are $20 or $25 per member - almost a no brainer to join the group.  If you do not join IMAC, the contest entry fee is slightly higher.  IMAC is growing.  There is something to be studied and to take away from their current growth curve and apply it to the NSRCA.  Coincidently, this "Superbowl" weekend, IMAC is hosting a weekend judging seminar at the JAX field.  30+ will be in attendance.  The class is hosted at a nice hotel, one day of classroom stuff, ½ a day of "judging" demonstration maneuvers and flights.  Again, there is something to take away from this.

I expect everyone can remain adult and have a decent discussion about this stuff.  No drama please.

Thanks,

Jim

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan fitzsimmons
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:14 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

You took it wrong Robert. Troy and I have our own issues. But I left hat out of this. You are Troy's friend and flying partner. I expect this comment from you. And that's fine. He is good to you.. 
You said it yourself. Print, or online doesn't matter. What if it was gone? I can see that happening after going E. It will end up a website with a few posts from districts that submit. Few people will  submit articles or pics to see them online. 
Does Imac have anything but a website and a discussion group? Is that what we want out of the Nsrca? If so, members will go away IMO. Because you do websites for a living, I can understand why you want it to go E. Nothing wrong with your thoughts here Rob. Not diggin on you either. You are a good person and I've enjoyed you out at the contests! But you are thinking of what you would like. Some of us have to think about the whole membership. I said I will go either for the membership, but I will go paper for myself at that point as that's what I like. Something I can give out at my club meetings to try to lure others into pattern. Obviously my flying and lots of helping others at my field isn't enough. 

Everyone has their own thought and opinion on this and that is 100% fine. Paper, E.... Doesn't matter to me. What does matter is keeping the Nsrca alive. And I will do what Derek tells me until I am no longer part of it. 

Now lets relax bro. I didn't mean this that way. I'm sure it's easy to take it that way, but that's why I added the last sentence of that email. I'm chill. It ain't no thang!!! Just a few people posting their own thoughts. 

Chris 

--- On Tue, 1/27/09, Robert L. Beaubien <rob at koolsoft.com> wrote:

From: Robert L. Beaubien <rob at koolsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 7:45 PM

Wow,  Why the personal digs at Troy?  And you apparently have a low opinion of the NSRCA membership.  I have my membership to support and participate in the organization that promotes pattern flying.  I get the K-Factor as an added benefit.  Getting it online or in print doesn't matter.   To say that most members would stop their membership in NSRCA if K-Factor went electronic is wrong.  The K-Factor as a magazine does not give me anywhere near $40 worth of value.  Making it available to everyone might help pattern get the exposure it so desperately needs.  It would certainly give our advertisers a (hopefully) much larger audience.  Hopefully it would do the same for pattern itself.  What we are currently doing is not working.  I want to grow pattern.  Keeping the K-Factor to ourselves will NEVER promote pattern.

- Robert Beaubien

- NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster

-

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan fitzsimmons
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:14 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

Troy, 

My personal feeling is that you can talk this till you are blue in the face. None of us have any facts to back this up either way yet. Your thoughts are what ifs, just like any of ours. If we make the Kfactor free, like you want, we will end up with 1-200 members tops @ 20 a member. And probably no advertisers.You are claiming 10 grand ahead with no advertisers. That's not reality if you make it free.  Maybe 2- 4 grand is. No different than where we are now. 
We have alot of people that only join the Nsrca to get a copy of the Kfactor. They may not even fly pattern, or have any desire. We don't make this magazine available at LHS's or maybe those people would not join and just buy the magazine there. Make it free, I can almost guarantee most will not renew. Only those that want to go for District Champion, attend the nats, or just plain want to support pattern will renew. 

Derek has stated this will go both ways, not one way. Those that want paper, will still get paper. Unless his mind gets changed, that's how it will be if this passes. I "would' like to see it happen, yes. If it helps the Nsrca. But on a temporary year long basis, or maybe two years. This way we can find out how many people do not renew. 

I will say this, if this does go to an online magazine only, I probably won't have the interest in editing it (which I'm sure doesn't hurt your feelings Troy). That should go to someone who likes online stuff. Someone who could take pride in an online magazine. I am fine with this, honestly. Anything that can better the Nsrca I am all for. Just an online magazine that will die out over time, I don't want to put my efforts and time into. Not being selfish here, just, I have a 5 year old girl that deserves any free time I have. And editing the Kfactor takes up alot of her time. But I have a passion for growing the Kfactor into a bigger magazine, with more advertisers, and someday having it on shelves at LHS's. 

To you Troy, you get nothing out of the Kfactor as you've been there, done that. To many people though, they do. I know this because I get a lot of emails of gratitude for what the Kfactor has become over the past 2 years. 

Troy, not trying to beat on you here, you are a member, and you have your right to try to make things change for the better. Nothing wrong with that. But you should break down the real costs before you put them in an email. Contact all the advertisers, see if they'll stick around. Contact all the members, see if they'll continue to pay their membership. This is a bigger thing than you make it out to be on your end. 

I'll tell you this, the meeting at the AMA show did some good. I came back and sent an email out about it to the officers, and I am passionate about finding out the real costs and see if it can be done. I don't think you will ever see it free to all though. I proposed a few dollar download fee.. But making free back issues available possibly every 3 or 4 months online for free could be done I'm thinking. 

Going to be interesting to see this ball keep rolling. I'm hoping it will be discussed at the board meeting in 3 or 4 weeks. Should be a hot topic.

Don't take this wrong, it's said in a mellow tone. 

Chris 

--- On Tue, 1/27/09, Troy Newman <troy at troynewman.net> wrote:

From: Troy Newman <troy at troynewman.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 5:39 PM

Thank you for the information Ron

This speaks to the heart of the matter in my mind. From the February numbers the KF cost the NSRCA $2976.21  On our best month of advertising from Derek's post was November last year and we had $2100 in ads.

That means the KF costs us about $800 a month out of the treasury. Treasury money comes from NATS, members’ dues and so on.

So we are paying approaching  10K a year (800+ a month for 12months) from the NSRCA general funds to subsidize the KF in its printed form.

Or to put it in other terms we can all understand 250 members at $40 a person dues to subsidize the KF

What is our total membership now aprox 500-600? ½ our membership funds are to fund the KF. This is in addition to the needed advertising dollars. If those ad dollars fall off the KF costs us that much more.

I would consider this a major financial concern for the organization. We all enjoy our printed copy. However is it really worth this level of cost. As an individual it’s easy to say well I paid my $40 I want my printed copy. As a group I don’t think this a financially responsible answer.

The economy is in relatively poor shape. All model suppliers (read our advertisers) are suffering the effects of this crunch. We are so concerned about keeping a printed copy in place to keep these companies spending their advertising $ with us. ..yet when a advertiser doesn't renew his ad  due to the economy we go further into the membership general funds to keep the KF floating. How many ads do we need?

An online only KF would still make a profit with little to no advertising money. Today we are spending $2976 for this month.  My personal feeling is going all online would be a benefit to our advertising partners. Making the KF free to all would increase distribution. Increase NSRCA visibility, and give our advertising partners more exposure for their dollar spent with us. To me this is a very win-win situation for all involved.

Personally I can't see it getting much better. Even if the KF was 100% covered by the ads which it is not. 

People fear change. The reality is do we need to lose 1/3 of our current advertising income before we really see the writing on the wall. Or do we proactively change the way we are doing things in order to make this system better for members, better for advertising, and better for the exposure of pattern to the modeling world.

Better for the members we will have more money in the bank. Even with zero advertising we will be 10K ahead each year. That’s if we lost all advertising.

Better for any advertisers we do have. The main supporters are going to stay with us. They will have a larger exposure at a lower cost to them.

Better for pattern as anybody and everybody can get the KF for free from the Nsrca download site.

I’m not beating a dead horse here. I just see the possibilities of thinking ahead, and developing a better and more current method of communication. Other SIGS are already doing this.

They got the same complaints when they started it, now they would not do it any other way. My local clubs have done the same thing and have managed to provide better funding for events, field improvements, and even fun fly events where the club buys products for prizes instead of donations. I mean they had an event that spent $2000-3000 on prizes and the entry fee for club members was ZERO for the fun fly. This was a direct result of saving the postage on the club news letter. 

By the way the club news letter is now double the size, all in color and has numerous ads from local Hobby shop owners. It has been a huge success over the last 2 years.

Troy Newman

________________________________

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Ron Davies
Sent: Tue 1/27/2009 10:23 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

Jim and any interested parties:

There is not a contract in place for printing the K-Factor.

Postage and printing is paid separately.  

Postage for the February 2009 K-Factor is $602.41.  The January 2009 cost of the K-Factor not including postage is $2,373.80.  

I will provide you a cost break out of the K-Factor.  Please give me a few days as my main computer with all the information is in the repair shop.  

Ron Davies

	----- Original Message ----- 

	From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>  

	To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

	Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:19 AM

	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

	Hi Guys,

	Can someone please repost the K-Factor cost break out?  Here are some questions I have about the publication:

	1.       Is there a contract in place for printing the K-Factor (if so, who is the contract with)?

	2.       Are the postage and printing paid for separately, or lumped together?

	10,000 words were sent to the list regarding whether to go digital or keep the hard copy, but I didn’t see the information discussing the current cost structure.

	Thanks,

	Jim

	From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
	Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:10 AM
	To: General pattern discussion
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

	It costs $2100/month to print and mail out the K-Factor the way we do it now?   What is the primary cost driver, format or postage?

	Thanks,

	Jim

	From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Bodary
	Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:41 PM
	To: General pattern discussion
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

The poll did not include a 50/50 mix. I would'nt mind a bimonthly K-Factor and could live with an electronic version every other month.

Makes me wonder how much advertising might be lost on a all electronic version. 

--- On Sat, 1/24/09, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com> wrote:

	From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
	To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
	Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 12:19 PM

	It's a lot easier to allow for a "pull" of the K-Factor versus a
	"push" of
	it... Pushing it means that we'd clock up the internet traffic lanes.  You
	will receive a reminder email that it is available. 

	-----Original Message-----
	From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
	[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hatton
	Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:01 AM
	To: General pattern discussion
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

	The electronic copy to download is good, but I would prefer at least a
	reminder Email when a new one becomes available,  and the option to have it
	attached to the email would be even better.

	Jay Marshall wrote:
	> You might want to upgrade
	 your
	 printer Ron. I have a 8 year old HP 970 
	> that prints both sides automatically. The real issue might be cost. 
	> What would it cost in ink to print a complete K-Factor in color on my 
	> printer vs the cost to have NSRCA print it? I can't carry my desktop
	to
	the throne room.
	> 
	> Jay Marshall
	> 
	> -----Original Message-----
	> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
	> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van 
	> Putte
	> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 11:42 AM
	> To: General pattern discussion
	> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
	> 
	> I like a paper copy, so I'd print it out to take it out to my hobby 
	> shop or the "throne
	 room".  It is
	 against my Scottish background
	to 
	> just print out a file one side only.  I'd like to print both sides of 
	> the paper.  If we decide to go with an electronic K-Factor only, it 
	> would be nice to have the PDF files arranged so, if we had a 6-page K- 
	> Factor, we could print out pages 1, 3, and 5, remove the sheets from 
	> the printer, flip over the sheets, reinsert the pages in the printer
	> and print out pages 2, 4 and 6 on the back of the respective pages.   
	> I know I could do it one page at a time with what we have now, but, 
	> with a 32-page K-Factor, that's a lot of shuffling around.
	> 
	> Ron Van Putte
	> 
	> On Jan 24, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
	> 
	>  

	>> Optional when one renews
	 - if we can work out the pricing details on 
	>> the paper only version.
	>> 
	>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- 
	>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Joe Lachowski
	>> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 8:11 AM
	>> To: NSRCA Discussion List
	>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
	>> 
	>> I guess having the option to choose which way you want it when you 
	>> renew is out?
	>> 
	>> I read it as an all or nothing kind of thing.
	>> 
	>> 
	>> 
	>> From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
	>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
	>> Date:
	 Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:41:30 -0800
	>>  
	 Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
	>> 
	>> 
	>> On the NSRCA website - http://www.nsrca.us - there is a poll that 
	>> we'd like everyone to participate in.
	>> There are two options on the poll:
	>> 1.  NSRCA Membership with electronic K-Factor only 2.  NSRCA 
	>> Membership with paper K-Factor The board would like to find out the 
	>> level of interest of everyone (NSRCA members and others) as to 
	>> whether they would prefer to receive their K-Factor electronically or 
	>> whether they'd like to receive it as a paper copy (as it is done 
	>> currently). 
	 Pricing on each type of membership is unknown at this 
	>> time, however, we believe that the
	 electronic only membership would 
	>> probably result in dues that are less than the paper K-Factor 
	>> membership.
	>> Please pass this email on to others that may not be connected to this 
	>> list - you do not have to be an NSRCA member to participate in this 
	>> poll.
	>> 
	>> HotmailR goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. See 
	>> how.
	>> _______________________________________________
	>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
	>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
	>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
	>>    

	> 
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