[NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

Tue Jan 27 21:13:57 AKST 2009

You took it wrong Robert. Troy and I have our own issues. But I left hat out of this. You are Troy's friend and flying partner. I expect this comment from you. And that's fine. He is good to you.. 
You said it yourself. Print, or online doesn't matter. What if it was gone? I can see that happening after going E. It will end up a website with a few posts from districts that submit. Few people will  submit articles or pics to see them online. 
Does Imac have anything but a website and a discussion group? Is that what we want out of the Nsrca? If so, members will go away IMO. Because you do websites for a living, I can understand why you want it to go E. Nothing wrong with your thoughts here Rob. Not diggin on you either. You are a good person and I've enjoyed you out at the contests! But you are thinking of what you would like. Some of us have to think about the whole membership. I said I will go either for the membership, but I will go paper for myself at that point as that's what I like. Something I can give out at my club meetings to try to lure others into pattern. Obviously my flying and lots of helping others at my field isn't enough. 

Everyone has their own thought and opinion on this and that is 100% fine. Paper, E.... Doesn't matter to me. What does matter is keeping the Nsrca alive. And I will do what Derek tells me until I am no longer part of it. 

Now lets relax bro. I didn't mean this that way. I'm sure it's easy to take it that way, but that's why I added the last sentence of that email. I'm chill. It ain't no thang!!! Just a few people posting their own thoughts. 

Chris          

--- On Tue, 1/27/09, Robert L. Beaubien <rob at koolsoft.com> wrote:
From: Robert L. Beaubien <rob at koolsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 7:45 PM

Wow,  Why the personal digs at Troy?  And you apparently have a
low opinion of the NSRCA membership.  I have my membership to support and
participate in the organization that promotes pattern flying.  I get the
K-Factor as an added benefit.  Getting it online or in print doesn't matter.   To
say that most members would stop their membership in NSRCA if K-Factor went
electronic is wrong.  The K-Factor as a magazine does not give me anywhere near
$40 worth of value.  Making it available to everyone might help pattern get the
exposure it so desperately needs.  It would certainly give our advertisers a
(hopefully) much larger audience.  Hopefully it would do the same for pattern
itself.  What we are currently doing is not working.  I want to grow pattern. 
Keeping the K-Factor to ourselves will NEVER promote pattern. 

- Robert Beaubien 

- NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster 

- 

From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan
fitzsimmons

Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:14 PM

To: General pattern discussion

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll 

  Troy, 

  My personal feeling is that you can talk this till you are blue in the face.
  None of us have any facts to back this up either way yet. Your thoughts are
  what ifs, just like any of ours. If we make the Kfactor free, like you want,
  we will end up with 1-200 members tops @ 20 a member. And probably no
  advertisers.You are claiming 10 grand ahead with no advertisers. That's not
  reality if you make it free.  Maybe 2- 4 grand is. No different than
  where we are now. 

  We have alot of people that only join the Nsrca to get a copy of the Kfactor.
  They may not even fly pattern, or have any desire. We don't make this
  magazine available at LHS's or maybe those people would not join and just buy
  the magazine there. Make it free, I can almost guarantee most will not renew.
  Only those that want to go for District Champion, attend the nats, or just
  plain want to support pattern will renew. 

  Derek has stated this will go both ways, not one way. Those that want paper,
  will still get paper. Unless his mind gets changed, that's how it will be if
  this passes. I "would' like to see it happen, yes. If it helps the
  Nsrca. But on a temporary year long basis, or maybe two years. This way we
  can find out how many people do not renew. 

  I will say this, if this does go to an online magazine only, I probably won't
  have the interest in editing it (which I'm sure doesn't hurt your feelings
  Troy). That should go to someone who likes online stuff. Someone who could
  take pride in an online magazine. I am fine with this, honestly. Anything
  that can better the Nsrca I am all for. Just an online magazine that will die
  out over time, I don't want to put my efforts and time into. Not being
  selfish here, just, I have a 5 year old girl that deserves any free time I
  have. And editing the Kfactor takes up alot of her time. But I have a passion
  for growing the Kfactor into a bigger magazine, with more advertisers, and
  someday having it on shelves at LHS's. 

  To you Troy, you get nothing out of the Kfactor as you've been there, done
  that. To many people though, they do. I know this because I get a lot of
  emails of gratitude for what the Kfactor has become over the past 2 years. 

  Troy, not trying to beat on you here, you are a member, and you have your
  right to try to make things change for the better. Nothing wrong with that.
  But you should break down the real costs before you put them in an email.
  Contact all the advertisers, see if they'll stick around. Contact all the
  members, see if they'll continue to pay their membership. This is a bigger
  thing than you make it out to be on your end. 

  I'll tell you this, the meeting at the AMA show did some good. I came back
  and sent an email out about it to the officers, and I am passionate about
  finding out the real costs and see if it can be done. I don't think you will
  ever see it free to all though. I proposed a few dollar download fee.. But
  making free back issues available possibly every 3 or 4 months online for
  free could be done I'm thinking. 

  Going to be interesting to see this ball keep rolling. I'm hoping it will be
  discussed at the board meeting in 3 or 4 weeks. Should be a hot topic.

  Don't take this wrong, it's said in a mellow tone. 

  Chris  

  --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Troy Newman <troy at troynewman.net>
  wrote: 
  From: Troy Newman
  <troy at troynewman.net>

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

  To: "General pattern discussion"
  <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

  Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 5:39 PM 

  Thank
  you for the information Ron 

  This speaks to the
  heart of the matter in my mind. From the February numbers the KF cost the
  NSRCA $2976.21  On our best month of advertising from Derek's post was
  November last year and we had $2100 in ads. 

  That means the KF
  costs us about $800 a month out of the treasury. Treasury money comes from
  NATS, members’ dues and so on. 

  So we are paying
  approaching  10K a year (800+ a month for 12months) from the NSRCA
  general funds to subsidize the KF in its printed form. 

  Or to put it in
  other terms we can all understand 250 members at $40 a person dues to
  subsidize the KF 

  What is our total
  membership now aprox 500-600? ½ our membership funds are to fund the KF. This
  is in addition to the needed advertising dollars. If those ad dollars fall
  off the KF costs us that much more. 

  I would consider
  this a major financial concern for the organization. We all enjoy our printed
  copy. However is it really worth this level of cost. As an individual it’s
  easy to say well I paid my $40 I want my printed copy. As a group I don’t
  think this a financially responsible answer. 

  The economy is in
  relatively poor shape. All model suppliers (read our advertisers) are
  suffering the effects of this crunch. We are so concerned about keeping a
  printed copy in place to keep these companies spending their advertising $
  with us. ..yet when a advertiser doesn't renew his ad  due to the
  economy we go further into the membership general funds to keep the KF
  floating. How many ads do we need? 

  An online only KF
  would still make a profit with little to no advertising money. Today we are
  spending $2976 for this month.  My personal feeling is going all online
  would be a benefit to our advertising partners. Making the KF free to all
  would increase distribution. Increase NSRCA visibility, and give our
  advertising partners more exposure for their dollar spent with us. To me this
  is a very win-win situation for all involved. 

  Personally I can't
  see it getting much better. Even if the KF was 100% covered by the ads which
  it is not.  

  People fear change.
  The reality is do we need to lose 1/3 of our current advertising income
  before we really see the writing on the wall. Or do we proactively change the
  way we are doing things in order to make this system better for members,
  better for advertising, and better for the exposure of pattern to the
  modeling world. 

  Better for the
  members we will have more money in the bank. Even with zero advertising we
  will be 10K ahead each year. That’s if we lost all advertising. 

  Better for any
  advertisers we do have. The main supporters are going to stay with us. They
  will have a larger exposure at a lower cost to them. 

  Better for pattern
  as anybody and everybody can get the KF for free from the Nsrca download
  site. 

  I’m not beating a
  dead horse here. I just see the possibilities of thinking ahead, and
  developing a better and more current method of communication. Other SIGS are
  already doing this. 
  They got the same
  complaints when they started it, now they would not do it any other way. My
  local clubs have done the same thing and have managed to provide better
  funding for events, field improvements, and even fun fly events where the
  club buys products for prizes instead of donations. I mean they had an event
  that spent $2000-3000 on prizes and the entry fee for club members was ZERO
  for the fun fly. This was a direct result of saving the postage on the club
  news letter.  

  By the way the club
  news letter is now double the size, all in color and has numerous ads from
  local Hobby shop owners. It has been a huge success over the last 2 years. 

  Troy Newman 

  From:
  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Ron Davies

  Sent: Tue 1/27/2009 10:23 AM

  To: General pattern discussion

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll 

  Jim and any
  interested parties: 

  There is not a
  contract in place for printing the K-Factor. 

  Postage and
  printing is paid separately.   

  Postage for the
  February 2009 K-Factor is $602.41.  The January 2009 cost of the
  K-Factor not including postage is $2,373.80.   

  I will provide you
  a cost break out of the K-Factor.  Please give me a few days as my main
  computer with all the information is in the repair shop.   

  Ron Davies 

  ----- Original
  Message -----  

  From: Woodward, Jim
  (US SSA)  

  To: General
  pattern discussion  

  Sent: Tuesday, January
  27, 2009 5:19 AM 

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
  Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll 

  Hi
  Guys, 

  Can
  someone please repost the K-Factor cost break out?  Here are some
  questions I have about the publication: 
  1.      
  Is there a contract in place for printing the K-Factor (if so,
  who is the contract with)? 
  2.      
  Are the postage and printing paid for separately, or lumped
  together? 

  10,000
  words were sent to the list regarding whether to go digital or keep the hard
  copy, but I didn’t see the information discussing the current cost structure. 

  Thanks, 
  Jim 

  From:
  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
  [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Woodward,
  Jim (US SSA)

  Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:10 AM

  To: General pattern discussion

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll 

  It
  costs $2100/month to print and mail out the K-Factor the way we do it
  now?   What is the primary cost driver, format or postage? 

  Thanks, 
  Jim 

  From:
  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
  [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dennis
  Bodary

  Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:41 PM

  To: General pattern discussion

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll 

    The poll did not include a 50/50 mix. I would'nt mind a bimonthly
    K-Factor and could live with an electronic version every other month. 

    Makes me wonder how much advertising might be lost on a all
    electronic version. 

    --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
    wrote: 

    From:
    Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>

    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll

    To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

    Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 12:19 PM 
    It's a lot easier to allow for a "pull" of the K-Factor versus a"push" ofit... Pushing it means that we'd clock up the internet traffic lanes.  Youwill receive a reminder email that it is available.  -----Original Message-----From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jeff HattonSent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:01 AMTo: General pattern discussionSubject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll The electronic copy to download is good, but I would prefer at least areminder Email when a new one becomes available,  and the option to have itattached to the email would be even better.  Jay Marshall wrote:> You might want to upgrade your printer Ron. I have a 8 year old HP 970 > that prints both sides automatically. The real issue might be cost. > What would it cost in ink to print a complete K-Factor in color on my > printer vs the cost to have NSRCA print it? I
 can't carry my desktoptothe throne room.> > Jay Marshall> > -----Original Message-----> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van > Putte> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 11:42 AM> To: General pattern discussion> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll> > I like a paper copy, so I'd print it out to take it out to my hobby > shop or the "throne room".  It is against my Scottish backgroundto > just print out a file one side only.  I'd like to print both sides of > the paper.  If we decide to go with an electronic K-Factor only, it > would be nice to have the PDF files arranged so, if we had a 6-page K- > Factor, we could print out pages 1, 3, and 5, remove the sheets from > the printer, flip over the sheets, reinsert the pages in the printer> and print out pages 2, 4 and 6 on the back of the respective pages.   > I know I could do it one
 page at a time with what we have now, but, > with a 32-page K-Factor, that's a lot of shuffling around.> > Ron Van Putte> > On Jan 24, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:> >   >> Optional when one renews - if we can work out the pricing details on >> the paper only version.>> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- >> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Joe Lachowski>> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 8:11 AM>> To: NSRCA Discussion List>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll>> >> I guess having the option to choose which way you want it when you >> renew is out?>> >> I read it as an all or nothing kind of thing.>> >> >> >> From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:41:30 -0800>>   Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll>> >> >> On the NSRCA website - http://www.nsrca.us - there is a
 poll that >> we'd like everyone to participate in.>> There are two options on the poll:>> 1.  NSRCA Membership with electronic K-Factor only 2.  NSRCA >> Membership with paper K-Factor The board would like to find out the >> level of interest of everyone (NSRCA members and others) as to >> whether they would prefer to receive their K-Factor electronically or >> whether they'd like to receive it as a paper copy (as it is done >> currently).  Pricing on each type of membership is unknown at this >> time, however, we believe that the electronic only membership would >> probably result in dues that are less than the paper K-Factor >> membership.>> Please pass this email on to others that may not be connected to this >> list - you do not have to be an NSRCA member to participate in this >> poll.>> >> HotmailR goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. See >> how.>> _______________________________________________>> NSRCA-discussion mailing
 list>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>>     > > _______________________________________________> NSRCA-discussion mailing list> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion> > _______________________________________________> NSRCA-discussion mailing list> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>    _______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.orghttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 

  _______________________________________________

  NSRCA-discussion mailing list

  NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 

  _______________________________________________

NSRCA-discussion mailing list

NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20090128/63246c71/attachment.html>