[NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes

Fri Dec 11 14:59:12 AKST 2009

Arch and others, I think only the folks that seriously have a chance of
getting to the podium at the NATS will buy full 2 meter bi-planes made of
space aged materials.  They are just a pain in the ass.  The rest of us just
want to fly any kind of full 2 meter airplane because they are easier to see
and fly better in the wind.  A full 2 meter bi-plane won't be easier to see
but may fly better in the wind but is that really worth it if you won't in
your wildest dreams make the podium.  I think not.  As I see it, the only
reason to keep the weight limit as is is because the designers and
manufacturers will only make planes to satisfy the top dogs and therefore
the only planes that will be available will be high priced full 2 meter
bi-planes with even more expensive engines.  Most of the 2 meter ARFS out
there really aren't very good.  I won't spend much over $1500 for an
airframe.  I'd rather have two $1500 airframes than one $3000+ airframe. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Archie
Stafford
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 6:10 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes

Dave,

It is still competition.  If guys weren't worried about being competitive,
you can go buy a .60 size Kaos and fly pattern.  You probably wont be
competitive, but you can fly.  This rule change would just make todays 2M
stuff obsolete and that would be exactly the situation we are in now.  There
are guys making weight with the cheap stuff today.  The top guys will always
fly the top of the line stuff.  This is still competition and there are
options to fly cheaper options, albeit probably not as competitive.  Pattern
by nature is not cheap, NOTHING competitive is.  Everyone in the world can
go play golf, but you don't see the top guys in the world buying clubs at
walmart, and there are airframes out there that will make weight with the
cheaper setups that are available today.  

You are right, todays available gas engines are cheaper than a YS 1.70DZ CDI
setup, but change the rules and watch that change as people develop engines
just specifically for pattern competition.   You can fly todays patterns
with an OS 1.60, but I will argue you are at a disadvantage with that setup
compared to the top electric and YS setups.  There is a reason the top stuff
costs more, because it is better.  If you could build a competitive engine
cheaply, then I'm sure someone would have done it by now.  It's not in the
best interest of the manufacturers to have the cost out of reach for many
people.  Top level options, expensive options will always be available, no
matter what rules you change.  

Arch

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 6:01 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes

Arch, you may be right on this, but I wonder how many pattern flyers would
do this. Seems to me that cheaper 2 M mono planes could be available without
the carbon fiber/Kevlar/titanium/aluminum expensive stuff we use today to
get under 11 lbs. How big can you make a 2 meter plane within the 2 meter
box. So what if gas engines could be used. Probably would be cheaper than
the YS 170 CDI in use today. I could certainly use the under $200.00 AXI
5330  FAI rather than the $500+ Pletty. 

I don't know if the rules proposal has much merit or not, but I wanted to
get it on the table for consideration.

Dave Burton

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Archie
Stafford
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:30 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes

Very simple statement.  Open your checkbook if this passes.  Big 2 meter
bipes will be the norm.  YS will come out with a 50CC size engine that blows
away other gas or Nitro setups, and much bigger, more powerful electric
setups to remain competitive.  People thing this would reduce the cost, it
will do exactly the opposite.  You are right Dave, there is no competitive
advantage to a plane of the size we are flying now being 11 1/2lbs, but be
able to build a 13lb bipe with unlimited power and watch what happens.

Arch

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bill Glaze
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:16 PM
To: jpavlick at idseng.com; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes

Yep!  I've got a G-62 laying around here that I have no use for--until now.

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 

From: John Pavlick <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>  

To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes

Excellent! Looks like I can finally build a gas-powered biplane. LOL

John Pavlick

--- On Fri, 12/11/09, Dave Burton <burtona at atmc.net> wrote:

From: Dave Burton <burtona at atmc.net>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 4:38 PM

I have submitted a rules proposal to completely eliminate the 11 lb. Weight
limit in AMA pattern classes. (proposal 11-11).
I'd like to see some discussion on the pros and cons of this proposal on the
NSRCA e-mail list and the Pattern forum.

My reasons for submitting the proposal include the following points:

1. There is no competitive advantage to a heavier plane with the 2 meter
size constraint (in fact I'd argue a heavier plane is usually at a
disadvantage and perhaps a minimum weight makes more sense than a maximum)
2. The 2 meter size constraint is sufficient keep the weight of pattern
planes to reasonable limits.
3. The fact that AMA class planes are weighed only at the US Nationals gives
proof that the rule is not now enforced and not needed.
4. The 11 lb. Weight limit drives up the cost of pattern planes through the
necessary use of more expensive high tech materials. (If you don't believe
"light weight" cost a lot of money ask the people who race sail boats)
5. Removing the weight limit will reduce the manpower and cost associated
with running the Nationals And also perhaps increase participation.

OK, guys, what do you think?
What other "pro" and "con" points?
Dave Burton

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