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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Arch and others, I think only the folks
that seriously have a chance of getting to the podium at the NATS will buy full
2 meter bi-planes made of space aged materials. They are just a pain in
the ass. The rest of us just want to fly any kind of full 2 meter
airplane because they are easier to see and fly better in the wind. A
full 2 meter bi-plane won’t be easier to see but may fly better in the
wind but is that really worth it if you won’t in your wildest dreams make
the podium. I think not. As I see it, the only reason to keep the
weight limit as is is because the designers and manufacturers will only make
planes to satisfy the top dogs and therefore the only planes that will be
available will be high priced full 2 meter bi-planes with even more expensive
engines. Most of the 2 meter ARFS out there really aren’t very good.
I won’t spend much over $1500 for an airframe. I’d rather
have two $1500 airframes than one $3000+ airframe. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Archie Stafford<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 11, 2009
6:10 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight limit in AMA classes</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dave,</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It
is still competition. If guys weren’t worried about being
competitive, you can go buy a .60 size Kaos and fly pattern. You probably
wont be competitive, but you can fly. This rule change would just make
todays 2M stuff obsolete and that would be exactly the situation we are in
now. There are guys making weight with the cheap stuff today. The
top guys will always fly the top of the line stuff. This is still
competition and there are options to fly cheaper options, albeit probably not
as competitive. Pattern by nature is not cheap, NOTHING competitive
is. Everyone in the world can go play golf, but you don’t see the
top guys in the world buying clubs at walmart, and there are airframes out there
that will make weight with the cheaper setups that are available today. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>You
are right, todays available gas engines are cheaper than a YS 1.70DZ CDI setup,
but change the rules and watch that change as people develop engines just
specifically for pattern competition. You can fly todays patterns
with an OS 1.60, but I will argue you are at a disadvantage with that setup
compared to the top electric and YS setups. There is a reason the top
stuff costs more, because it is better. If you could build a competitive
engine cheaply, then I’m sure someone would have done it by now.
It’s not in the best interest of the manufacturers to have the cost out
of reach for many people. Top level options, expensive options will
always be available, no matter what rules you change. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Arch</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Burton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 11, 2009
6:01 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight limit in AMA classes</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Arch,
you may be right on this, but I wonder how many pattern flyers would do this.
Seems to me that cheaper 2 M mono planes could be available without the carbon
fiber/Kevlar/titanium/aluminum expensive stuff we use today to get under 11
lbs. How big can you make a 2 meter plane within the 2 meter box. So what if
gas engines could be used. Probably would be cheaper than the YS 170 CDI in use
today. I could certainly use the under $200.00 AXI 5330 FAI rather than
the $500+ Pletty. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I
don’t know if the rules proposal has much merit or not, but I wanted to
get it on the table for consideration.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dave
Burton</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Archie Stafford<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 11, 2009
5:30 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight limit in AMA classes</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Very
simple statement. Open your checkbook if this passes. Big 2 meter
bipes will be the norm. YS will come out with a 50CC size engine that
blows away other gas or Nitro setups, and much bigger, more powerful electric
setups to remain competitive. People thing this would reduce the cost, it
will do exactly the opposite. You are right Dave, there is no competitive
advantage to a plane of the size we are flying now being 11 1/2lbs, but be able
to build a 13lb bipe with unlimited power and watch what happens.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Arch</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bill Glaze<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 11, 2009
5:16 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> jpavlick@idseng.com; General
pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Weight limit in AMA classes</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Yep! I've got a G-62 laying around here that I
have no use for--until now.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bill</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" title="jpavlick@idseng.com">John Pavlick</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Friday,
December 11, 2009 4:47 PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Excellent! Looks like I can finally build a
gas-powered biplane. LOL</span></font></p>
</div>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>John Pavlick<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Fri, 12/11/09, Dave Burton <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
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margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
From: Dave Burton <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Weight limit in AMA classes<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 4:38 PM</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have submitted a rules proposal to completely
eliminate the 11 lb. Weight<br>
limit in AMA pattern classes. (proposal 11-11).<br>
I'd like to see some discussion on the pros and cons of this proposal on the<br>
NSRCA e-mail list and the Pattern forum.<br>
<br>
My reasons for submitting the proposal include the following points:<br>
<br>
1. There is no competitive advantage to a heavier plane with the 2 meter<br>
size constraint (in fact I'd argue a heavier plane is usually at a<br>
disadvantage and perhaps a minimum weight makes more sense than a maximum)<br>
2. The 2 meter size constraint is sufficient keep the weight of pattern<br>
planes to reasonable limits.<br>
3. The fact that AMA class planes are weighed only at the US Nationals gives<br>
proof that the rule is not now enforced and not needed.<br>
4. The 11 lb. Weight limit drives up the cost of pattern planes through the<br>
necessary use of more expensive high tech materials. (If you don't believe<br>
"light weight" cost a lot of money ask the people who race sail
boats)<br>
5. Removing the weight limit will reduce the manpower and cost associated<br>
with running the Nationals And also perhaps increase participation.<br>
<br>
OK, guys, what do you think?<br>
What other "pro" and "con" points?<br>
Dave Burton<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a
href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.<br>
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