[NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions

Sat Oct 25 10:20:45 AKDT 2008

Matt and others with questions on CDI and lower oil content,

This is a little long but I feel its information that you guys will
appreciate and you should realize where things are in terms of the CDI
system.

This engine Ed is talking about is a normal YS 170DZ.  I have seen the
normal YS 170DZ fail on 15% oil content. Busted Con Rod. That is why YS
recommends 20% oil content.

There are no CDI engines available to the public.. The CDI engine is
still at least a  year off and there is more testing that is needed. The
best and in my opinion the only fuel to run is Cool Power 30% Heli
Performance. The oil package is better than any fuel on the market. I
use only this fuel and have had extremely impressive results with this
fuel and this fuel alone for the past 5-6 years. Other that seem to have
problems are bound and determined to run other fuels that they "know are
better" This is not an advertisement for Morgan Fuels. It's a fact of
life and my experience with engines that others have tried XYZ fuel in.
Richard and the YS crew have seen the same results. Morgan has the magic
fuel that is very good on these engines. It's the oil package 100% proof
positive. I have 160DZ's with over 1000runs that have had bearings and
rings replaced and that is all. There is a reason we run that fuel. It
flat works better than any other on the market. When a guy has a problem
with his engine and you ask what fuel he is running 90% of the time he
is not running the good stuff. I know I spend hrs every week answering
emails, phone calls and helping guys work on their engines even
repairing some of them myself.

The CDI engines do have some new parts in order to allow low oil
content. 

The low oil content on a non CDI engine that still has the new parts for
low oil makes the engine difficult to tune. The low oil richens the
mixture in effect.  So with the CDI you can lean the pump and HS way
down in order to accommodate the low oil content. On a  glow plug you
can never lean out the middle without detonating and it's still way too
rich at idle.

Like I have repeated many times. The CDI system that is being used is in
its infant stages at the moment. One thing that we are finding is while
the mixture is easier to set without having a lean blown up condition
from detonation as there is no detonation. On the other hand it's tough
to get the mixture just right in the sweet spot. It seems as the oil
content is reduced to where I am running it now (5% oil) the HS needle
can get a little touchy in hot weather. One click either way can mean
too lean or too rich. This is likely because the HS needle is closed
down a bunch and is only open 5/8 turns.

Remember this is testing stuff.  This information is being passed along
to the make the products better and improve performance.

You can't take the idea of just put it on a  spark plug and then use the
same old parts with a new oil content. Yes Spark ignition allows you to
change some things...but you will get into future issues and changes
that are being tested out now. There is a big difference in the way you
tune the two engines. Glow has its methods and Spark acts a little
differently. You have to realize that the people that are currently
running the setup went through some growing pains on figuring it out. We
shared this info with each other as we learned the tricks. This made
others that got the new setup right before the NATS like Brett and Don
Sczur successful with it at the NATS.

Quique's #1 engine had a failure of the spark plug cap. This was a
mechanical part the spark plug wire that broke.  There is a new spark
plug cap on that ignition box and I have flown that exact ignition box
since.  His #2 engine might just have been a case of not getting the
mixture set properly. I usually get it where I think it needs to be and
then fly it. In that first flight I will tweak the mixture after I land.
There have been more than a few times I have taken off so rich that it
won't work and keeps cooling off and off until the motor is not making
any power at all. Land and lean it down 2 clicks and its perfect. I
thought it was perfect from the tach readings and my "expert" ear.
However it was not.

So I must repeat the standard 170DZ is just like any other YS DZ engine
and should be run accordingly. There are special parts that make it CDI
and then there are even more additional parts that make it LOW oil
content CDI.

When the CDI system is released it is likely that it will have the low
oil parts associated with it. To answer your question. No there are not
needle bearings on the connecting rod. However the crank, rod, lifters,
other parts are different than a standard DZ engine to accommodate the
low oil content. I know the parts I converted one of my engines from
Stock out of the box production engine from Central Hobbies to CDI back
in January. Then I converted that same engine to Low oil capability. I
have flown that engine since about May this way. First on normal 30%
Cool Power Heli performance Blend...and now on a  Cool Power 30% nitro/
5% oil blend.

The normal fuel is fine with the low oil parts. This means that YS could
start including low oil parts in production engines before the CDI is
released in order to make a easier change over to CDI with low oil later
on. I have no information about this plan that I can share.

This setup is very cool and works tremendously well.  I will not be
flying glow plugs anytime soon for sure. There is also work to be done
on the program inside the little magic box. Just an electronic ignition
like off a DA 50 is not what we are working with. I personally have had
2 different ignition boxes that have different advance curves in them.
If you know the engine you can tell the difference. There is still
plenty of testing to be done. Yes this is exciting technology and its
moving forward very fast at the moment. There is a reason they call it
testing. I would suspect late next year at the very soonest to have CDI
parts available.

We need to run the engines on this low oil for a long time in order to
find out what the results are. I have been running this new fuel 5% oil
content since about May. I have not had issues. Some others have gone up
to a 10-12% oil content as they felt the engine worked better for them.
Others that are doing the testing on the new engines are just playing
follow the leader as we have been sharing information. Right before the
NATS it was a mad dash to make sure we all knew what was going on. By
next NATS there will be more testing and guys that were playing follow
the setup that works will have tested other setups. Who knows maybe the
10-12% oil is going to be the ticket in the end Right now I have about 8
cases of 30% 5% oil though two engines. Even in 100deg AZ temps and its
performance has been good. I had some little issues in June and
struggled with it. Those problems were traced down and the solution
proved to be correct. Now it's testing testing testing.

I know for a fact that a normal on glow plug 170DZ will fail on 15% oil
in a few flights. I witnessed it and others experienced the same thing.

I hope this helps answer some questions about the system. It's just
going to take lots of flights and a few worn out engines to find out the
weak links in the system.

Troy Newman

Team YS

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
rcmaster199 at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 10:14 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org; adriancwong at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions

Are you guys seeing that it really needs that much oil? The ignition
timing is in a can on this engine and you don't need to use mixture as
your timing mechanism. Is the con-rod still bushed or has YS switched to
needle bearings?

I suppose the amount of oil in heli fuel won't really hurt anything but
why would one not use, say, 12% oil? It should allow better gas mileage
but not at the expense of bushings breaking down/seezing

Eddie were you quoted a price? I'm thinking about this one too

MattK

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Alt <ed_alt at hotmail.com>
To: adriancwong at earthlink.net; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:26 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions

Thanks to all who responded, very helpful. 

Ed 
----- Original Message ----- From: <adriancwong at earthlink.net> 
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:09 AM 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions 

> Ed, 
> 
>>Exhaust: I guess you buy the Hatori 821 and call it a day? Any special
>>mounting tips? 
> 
> Most likely you will be couple the 821 pipe with either the 822 or 823
> header - different rise height. Suggest using a Nishioka quick release
> pipe mount instead of the pipe mount that came with the pipe. The
Nishioka > came in three different heights - 20, 29 and 37 mm rise.
Again, it all > depends on which header that you're using. 
> 
> 
>>Engine mount: I've heard a little bit about an isolation mount that YS
>>makes, but it's pricey. What, if anything does this buy you as
compared >>to a Hyde / Budd mount solution? 
> 
> Budd mount is good, but I've found it a bit on the noisy side. Also, I
> wish Jerry will switch from 4-40 to 6-32 on the mounting bolts. So
far, > I've found the YS mount the best - between idling and full
throttle. Less > noise and less vibration. 
> 
> 
>>Fuel: What's the real deal with the oil? Not the percentage, because I
>>know that's being experimented with, but what oil does this engine
require >>in the fuel? 
> 
> Recommend using either Coolpower 30% heli, or 30% with low smoke - all
> synthetic, don't use anything with caster oil. I preferred the regular
30% > heli than the low smoke. 
> 
>> 
>>Maintenance: I'ev heard that prior to the first run, you need to take
the >>head cover off and oil up the lifters. True? What kind of oil, how
much >>etc? What about after run? None needed? What other maintenance
tips are >>there to keep this beast going? 
> 
> YS shipped all engines with no gap on the valves. However, I always
open > it slightly before the first start. Also, take off the valve
cover and wet > sand the contact surface on a smooth surface with very
fine sand paper. By > doing that, you will eliminate any uneven high
spot on the valve cover, > causing the engine to surge due to air leaks.

> 
> Open up the cam cover and drop a few drops of oil inside to lube the
the > cam. 
> 
> Use either YS or OS F plug 
> 
> No after run oil is necessary. After you finish flying, no need to run
out > the excess fuel, unless you're planning not to fly for over a
year. 
> 
> 
>>Break In: What prop? Lower the nitro? Follow the instructions or is
>>there a better way? 
> 
> Just use a slightly smaller diameter prop for break-in, and you can
use > the same nitro, just run it rich for the first 4 - 5 tanks and
gradually > lean it. I used a 16.5x13w for break-in, fly it for 5 - 6
flights on > 17x12w. Currently, I'm experimenting between 17.7x11.7 and
18x11 WPN > re-pitched to 18x12. RPM between 7,600 to 7,800 
> 
> 
> 
> On first start of the day, do not use a starter to prime the engine -
> since when you turn the prop, pump will feed fuel into engine. Just
turn > over the prop 4 - 5 times, then, rock the spinner cone back and
forth 4 - > 5 times to activate the pump, it's ready to start. You do
not need to > prime the engine again after the first flight. 
> 
> Preferably, use a time delay glow driver - to prevent knocking/ kick
back. > Do not take the starter away as soon as the engine stated, let
it spin for > an additional 2 - 3 seconds to ensure the engine is indeed
started to > prevent abrupt stop. 
> 
> The 170 is pretty much bullet proof, the last one I sent back for
service > have had over 500 flights. It only needed front and rear
bearing and > piston ring. 
> 
> If you have other question, feel free to contact me. 
> 
> Adrian 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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