[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
J N Hiller
jnhiller at earthlink.net
Sat Feb 2 08:44:03 AKST 2008
OOPS, I guess my sarcasm was taken seriously. I expect to point out of
advanced this year and am looking forward to flying the 2009 masters
sequence (I didn’t like the current one). I don’t have a problem with
masters adopting a previous FAI schedule, which has been done in the past.
What I fear is if this becomes policy, masters is likely to adopt schedules
of ever-increasing difficulty, beyond what some of us are willing to commit
to. I don’t expect to ever fly masters competitively and would never point
out, if it were to be included in the rules. There are recreational
competitors regularly attending local and regional contests that are unable
or unwilling to keep up with the ever-increasing difficulty necessary to
separate the few top-level world-class competitors competing under common
rules. The rules as they presently exist offer masters as a destination
class and allow for a cap in masters class difficulty more compatible with
the majority of the class competitors. Those desiring a greater challenge
can fly FAI at will relative to their personal compatibility with each new
schedule.
I went through this many years ago when the IMAC class I was competing in
adopted rolling circles. Yes I could probably learn to stumble my way
through it but the effort, time and risk wasn’t compatible with enjoyment of
this hobby / sport. I will always remember my flying buddies comment one
practice day, “I aint got enough airplanes to learn how to do that”.
If rules are proposed and approved that don’t include revisions to mandatory
advancement that allow flying in a class compatible with an individual’s
personal level of ability and commitment it is likely they will explore
other interests.
I came back to pattern competition after about 7 years and have place high
flying classes I could fly comfortably with very low risk and limited
practice. I am about an 80% flier, which I don’t consider exceptional or
sandbagging (I wish raw score averages were posted for major contests). Keep
the $%^7 trophies, I don’t need them. I just want to join in the fun and fly
with old and new friends.
Jim Hiller
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Kane
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:39 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
There is an advancement point system defined in the AMA competition
regulations. For Intermediate and Advanced class, once a pilot earns 100
advancement points they must move up to the next higher class at the end of
the season. 1st place earns points eqaul to 3 times the number of pilots you
beat, 2nd place earns you 2 times the number of pilots you beat, 3rd place
and beyond you earn 1 point for every pilot you beat. For eample, you place
2nd in advanced ahead of 2 other pilots you would earn 2x2 or 4 points. The
first place pilot in the same contest would earn 9 points. Tracking of
points is the pilot's responsibility. The AMA does not track them, the NSRCA
does not track them. You can read the details in the regulations found here:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/RC%20Aerobatics.pdf
Bob Kane
getterflash at yahoo.com
----- Original Message ----
From: J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 12:20:45 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
“Masters not a destination class” How long can I stay in advanced before
dropping out of pattern?
Jim Hiller
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
vicenterc at comcast.net
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:48 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
I believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days event
to fly F schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going to be able to
find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules and the CD
can override this if he announces the change with time.
I agree that in Masters we should fly the current P schedule. This will
make a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The rules should be
changed to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA classes. In
other worlds, Masters should not be the final destination as it is now.
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Tony" <tony at radiosouthrc.com>
Those are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules state
that the F patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and
are not designed to be flown at a local contest.
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South, Inc.
139 Altama Connector, Box 322
Brunswick , GA 31525
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com <http://www.radiosouthrc.com/>
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony
Romano
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
Another good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the better
we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F
always just scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to
learn it. Now if everyone promises no laughing I might try it.
From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.
Anthony
_____
From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
Problem with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't want to
fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know 1
sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able to
have a handle on the other class without much work. Its probably just me,
but if FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a
more Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is
this right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning
teams at the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to start
flying F locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.
Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com/>
www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53 PM
To: ' NSRCA Mailing List '
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
There is a way to solve the peer judging and several other problems with
changing maneuver schedules for Masters class.
Let Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate class.
This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely
familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be
completely familiar with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not
have to come up with a new schedule periodically as it changes every other
year just like FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty
that flying the P schedule should not be any problem for masters class
flyers.
OK, Flame suit on!
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mark Atwood
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
For our matrix version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2
contests. The scorer set up a second masters only contest for the B panel
to enter their scores. It worked quite well with only a little confusion.
It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the top
8. Im pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had some
variance...but I think thats true regardless of the format.
-Mark
On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com> wrote:
I suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as be a
logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really
like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer.
Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that
One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in Masters to
generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge and don't
fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time required would
work out the same because the group had two less pilots but again lot of
objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially as the contest
end grew near.
Anthony
_____
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500
From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
Anthony,
I have to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4
years back at our district championships with the masters class. We had 17
pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the
Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few
Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong
sentence.
So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options, it worked very
well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try and make it work
well. We ! used pe er judging for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight lines,
with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each line, tossed high and low
by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any given time. This allowed
the person before and after each flight some time to prep and decompress
before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then start over on the
second line.
Its a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you completely
randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged but the
same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same group each
round.
It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were presented
with the same grossly offset numbers of entries.
On a related note... A better solution was tried a few years later when we
had similar numbers (16 masters pilots)
We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still used FAI and Advanced
j! udges, but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice
versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each group and
combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a Finalists group (with the
other 8 judging and flying in their own group for the bottom 8 spots.)
This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the long
run.
-Mark
On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward at baesystems.com> wrote:
Hey Anthony,
**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard for
political correctness *****
I dont think peer judging works. I dont think it sends the right message
about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for
each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the right
mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows
like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging).
The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all
pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points per
maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesnt compute if one judge
is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should
probably be in place for this to! work l ike: large number of judges, drop
high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity,
and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work.
I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched the
flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not to
compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
Thanks,
Jim W.
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us [
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us%5d> On Behalf Of Anthony
Romano
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the
Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the
FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could
keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that were there how did it work out?
Sound interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the
FAI rules and the sequence.
Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious drawbacks
too, but trying to inspire some thought.
Anthony
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