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<title>OOPS, I guess my sarcasm was taken seriously</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle25><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>OOPS, I
guess my sarcasm was taken seriously. I expect to point out of advanced this
year and am looking forward to flying the 2009 masters sequence (I didn’t like
the current one). I don’t have a problem with masters adopting a previous FAI
schedule, which has been done in the past. What I fear is if this becomes
policy, masters is likely to adopt schedules of ever-increasing difficulty, beyond
what some of us are willing to commit to. I don’t expect to ever fly masters
competitively and would never point out, if it were to be included in the
rules. There are recreational competitors regularly attending local and
regional contests that are unable or unwilling to keep up with the ever-increasing
difficulty necessary to separate the few top-level world-class competitors competing
under common rules. The rules as they presently exist offer masters as a
destination class and allow for a cap in masters class difficulty more
compatible with the majority of the class competitors. Those desiring a greater
challenge can fly FAI at will relative to their personal compatibility with
each new schedule.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle25><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I went
through this many years ago when the IMAC class I was competing in adopted
rolling circles. Yes I could probably learn to stumble my way through it but
the effort, time and risk wasn’t compatible with enjoyment of this hobby /
sport. I will always remember my flying buddies comment one practice day, “I
aint got enough airplanes to learn how to do that”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle25><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If rules
are proposed and approved that don’t include revisions to mandatory advancement
that allow flying in a class compatible with an individual’s personal level of ability
and commitment it is likely they will explore other interests. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle25><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I came
back to pattern competition after about 7 years and have place high flying
classes I could fly comfortably with very low risk and limited practice. I am about
an 80% flier, which I don’t consider exceptional or sandbagging (I wish raw
score averages were posted for major contests). Keep the $%^7 trophies, I don’t
need them. I just want to join in the fun and fly with old and new friends.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle25><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle25><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Kane<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 01, 2008
5:39 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F
at locals?</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>There is an
advancement point system defined in the AMA competition regulations. For
Intermediate and Advanced class, once a pilot earns 100 advancement points they
must move up to the next higher class at the end of the season. 1st place
earns points eqaul to 3 times the number of pilots you beat, 2nd place earns
you 2 times the number of pilots you beat, 3rd place and beyond you earn 1
point for every pilot you beat. For eample, you place 2nd in advanced ahead of
2 other pilots you would earn 2x2 or 4 points. The first place pilot in
the same contest would earn 9 points. Tracking of points is the
pilot's responsibility. The AMA does not track them, the NSRCA does not track
them. You can read the details in the regulations found here: <a
href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/RC%20Aerobatics.pdf">http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/RC%20Aerobatics.pdf</a><br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Bob Kane<br>
getterflash@yahoo.com </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>----- Original Message ----<br>
From: J N Hiller <jnhiller@earthlink.net><br>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 12:20:45 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=emailstyle23><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>“Masters not a destination class” How long can I stay in advanced before
dropping out of pattern?</span></font></span><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=emailstyle23><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Jim Hiller</span></font></span><font color=black><span style='color:
black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=emailstyle23><font
size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'> </span></font></span><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>vicenterc@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 01, 2008
8:48 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F
at locals?</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I believe
that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days event to fly F
schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going to be able to
find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules and
the CD can override this if he announces the change with
time. </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I agree that
in Masters we should fly the current P schedule. This will make
a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The rules should be
changed to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA classes.
In other worlds, Masters should not be the final destination as it is
now.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>--<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.2pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>-------------- Original message
-------------- <br>
From: "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Those
are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules state that
the F patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and are not
designed to be flown at a local contest. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tony
Stillman, President</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Radio
South, Inc.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>139
Altama Connector, Box 322</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Brunswick
, GA 31525</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1-800-962-7802</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/" target="_blank">www.radiosouthrc.com</a></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:
.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:
center'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 01, 2008
8:36 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion] F at
locals?</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.2pt'><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Another good point
Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I
can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just
scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if
everyone promises no laughing I might try it.<br>
From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.<br>
<br>
Anthony</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:
.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:
center'><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.2pt'><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>From:
jshulman@cfl.rr.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span class=ec300100000-01022008><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>Problem with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys
don't want to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand
getting to know 1 sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI
guys should be able to have a handle on the other class without much
work. Its probably just me, but if FAI were to fly both P and F, then
having "Masters" fly P might be a more Masters class this way. Then again,
I may be off in left field, or is this right? And since now both the Team
Trials and Worlds pick the winning teams at the end of the contest (after F) it
would make more sense to start flying F locally so it's not a shock come Nats
time.</span></font></span><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
www.jasonshulman.com<br>
<a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target="_blank">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target="_blank">www.composite-arf.com</a>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.2pt'><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Burton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31, 2008
6:53 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> ' NSRCA Mailing List '<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging by committee?</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>There
is a way to solve the peer judging and several other problems with
changing maneuver schedules for Masters class.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Let
Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate class.
This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be completely familiar
with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and be completely familiar
with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not have to come up with a new
schedule periodically as it changes every other year just like FAI. The
schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty that flying the P
schedule should not be any problem for masters class flyers.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>OK,
Flame suit on!</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31, 2008
3:56 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.2pt'><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>For our matrix version,
the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran 2 contests. The scorer
set up a second masters only contest for the B panel to enter their scores.
It worked quite well with only a little confusion. <br>
<br>
It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the top 8.
Im pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had some
variance...but I think thats true regardless of the format.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105@hotmail.com>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.2pt'><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
I suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as
be a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence. Really
like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the scorer.
Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that<br>
One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in
Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge
and don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time
required would work out the same because the group had two less pilots but
again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially as
the contest end grew near. <br>
<br>
Anthony</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:
.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:
center'><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.2pt'><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008
15:14:15 -0500<br>
From: atwoodm@paragon-inc.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Anthony,<br>
<br>
I have to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this about 4
years back at our district championships with the masters class. We had
17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in advanced.
So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using the
Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the few
Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong sentence.<br>
<br>
So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options, it worked very
well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try and make it work
well. We ! used pe er judging for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight
lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each line, tossed high
and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any given time. This
allowed the person before and after each flight some time to prep and
decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then start over
on the second line.<br>
<br>
Its a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you completely
randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be judged but the
same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same group each round.<br>
<br>
It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were
presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries. <br>
<br>
On a related note... A better solution was tried a few years later when we had
similar numbers (16 masters pilots)<br>
<br>
We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still used FAI and
Advanced j! udges, but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and vice
versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each
group and combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a Finalists group
(with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group for the bottom 8
spots.)<br>
<br>
This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the
long run.<br>
<br>
-Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward@baesystems.com>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:76.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hey
Anthony,<br>
<br>
**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard for
political correctness *****<br>
<br>
I dont think peer judging works. I dont think it sends the right message
about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each
pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the
right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows
like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer judging). <br>
<br>
The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges
see and subtract about the exact same number of points per maneuver see the
same downgrades. The situation doesnt compute if one judge is off from
the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should probably
be in place for this to! work l ike: large number of judges, drop high
score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and
judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work. <br>
<br>
I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched
the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not
to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario. <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
</span></font><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim W.<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:76.2pt'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d" target="_blank"
rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us%5d">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Anthony Romano<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 31, 2008
1:44 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<br>
<br>
Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on the
Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI
pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could keep your
objectivity? ! For tho se that were there how did it work out? Sound
interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI
rules and the sequence.<br>
Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious
drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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