[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals/FAI's purpose?

[Woodward, Jim]

Hi Guys - I was in on the first promotion of flying F07 at the Andersonville contest.  I believe I felt some excitement in the air - and God knows anything you can do to get "excitment" into a pattern contest MUST be some type of step in the right direction.  I love pattern flying and have years of posts on this list to show a pattern of it.  That day in Andersonville Ken B. took some pictures of me standing there flying F07 as the first pilot up, with Billy, John F., and Jason standing behind me watching.  Ken swivelled and took photos with the entire contestant crew actually watching the flight!  It felt special and really cool to know that for that day, FAI captured the heart of contest and it was cool to know that we were the first district to do it!  We talked about how cool it was to get a leg up on folks heading into the Nationals, and also, that "our" judges were going to see the finals pattern before anyone else. And sure, we also knew Jason was going to lay a spank-down on us!!!!!!!!!  .... but we did it anyway....
 
What happened afterward is that myself, Ryan, Joe, Cameron, and Jason began flying F07 at the remaining local contests.  Ryan, Joe, Cameron, and I started getting better - no surprise right - F07 was a tough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   
 
On a very positive note, overwhemingly that sequence and flying it with and against Jason each time out made us better pilots.  Also, truth be told, regarddless of this obvious skill improvement by the class, there was no improvement in our scores.  In fact - specifically - I will reference my flying at the 2007 District Champs contest BLEW AWAY anything else or any time I've flown the P07/F07 sequences - which received RAW scores that were on par or worse than ever before even considering the 2006 season.  Most insulting, was an 894 normalized score on a round that could have been a  nats round winner of P07. And Sunday morning's F07 round which I should have won, that normalized to a 869.  This trend basically followed the other pilots as well in random form troughout the year.  This experience is what/why my shot against judging went out months ago.  This was the lowest normalized performance I'd experience in these sequences - ever.  
 
That is the story clean and simple.  Regarding F0X at local contests.  Maybe it is time to provide another "shot" in the arm of excitement!  Maybe that excitement would come from limiting F0X flying for a while, so that new and old blood can come and give FAI a shot again.  Get some more guys in FAI and let some new "Masters" blood move into the "hunt" in Masters class too.  Open up the standings a bit so just maybe some guys who are struggling in the 3-8 positions (just an example), all of a sudden are in a serious hunt for a trophy!  Give these guys some excitement and motivation to spend a lot of $$$ and hit the practice field with dedication.  That may give "more" guys a reason to get to the practice field.  However, whether F0X is or is not flown at local contests really won't effect my participation so I support whatever decision is made.  I'll compete either way.  
 
Obviously, I don't feel there is much to lose anymore by letting these opinions out.  I really don't care if this offends anybody.  It doesn't bothere me if they are consider as "crying" or "sour-grapes" or whatever you want, however I believe I have a pretty good track record which would say the opposite.  Go ahead, ask what I have done for the group lately...  not much (lately)...  Go ahead, some guys chime in say I'm full of it.. Fine.  Come on back, go ahead and say 894 and 869 is where I need to be those rounds.  Fine.  I've got it all wrong and shouldn't be in FAI.   Since I haven't offered any solutions in a while I offer this thought:
 
The most important thing to get correct in a competition, are the "competitive" factors. As our current crop of competitors are our most important people, we must do everything we can to ensure "they" feel invested in the process and outcome of the event, and equally feel there is open/honest transparency at every level.  When competitors feel these things are in place, they leave a contest feeling a certain level of acceptance at the outcome, and will (get this) "bring people back" the next time.  If competitors feel that the stage is not set for fair competition, then (get this) they "take people with them" and they don't come back.  I don't think it would hurt to have a complete reinvestment in judge-training, and judge practical training at contests.  Beyond the actual knowledge, the moral imperity of strict adherance to the judging code of ethics should be enshrined in all of us and be a tremendous source of pride.
 
Maybe I've got it all wrong and its just time for me to move on.  Just some ideas.
 
Jim W.
 
 


 
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and proprietary information.  Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient(s), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
 
________________________________


From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us on behalf of JShulman
Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 9:40 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals/FAI's purpose?


One thing I think everyone can agree on is we will never please everyone flying pattern. I try not to put my nose in the business of the lower classes because I don't fly them. Technically I could move back down to Advanced (hmmm, maybe if we can't fly F anymore, I'll challenge myself this way...lol), but I want to fly FAI. Last time I checked, FAI consists of 2 sequences, a P and an F. When I started pattern, my goal was to be an FAI pilot. Once I started flying FAI, my goal then became to be the best FAI pilot I could so I could make the US Team. Next goal is to become part of the US Team Champions again and a World Champion. Others I know what to fly FAI because of the challenge. Some of them have time to dedicate to the goal, and others don't. The one's that don't, still fly it because of the challenge, regardless of how they place. I just read the RCU thread about F at local contests and am going to quote Chad cause I like the way he wrote what he did (sorry Chad). "FAI is the pinnacle of pattern competition, most who fly in that class do so because they want to achieve a very high level of proficiency in their flying. You do that with challenging sequences, that challenge the pilots to their limit. Those that do not want to commit that amount of time and effort have other classes such as Masters which is a very tough and competitive class, and gives nothing up to the FAI P schedule (IMO of course)." 
 
Would flying P and F really scare away pilots? or just scare them from flying FAI? If pilots can't dedicate time to fly F, where are they getting time to fly P/Masters? When FAI first introduced rolling circles and loops, the option to move to Masters was well used. FAI is a 2 sequence class, P and F, and now the Worlds results, Team and Individual, are based off of BOTH P and F. Why shouldn't we do our part for FAI pilots to be the best prepared for this challenge? How do we prepare for the Nats/TT by only flying P? Should the Nats/TT be a P only contest so we can have more pilots entered? I am very thankful that D3 started flying F at local contests. It gave me more confidence when going to both the Nats and the Worlds (even though Worlds scores don't show it). 
 
I think I'm just a bit confused as to what the goal of/for FAI pilots are now. And now I'm also confused as to if there is a rule that says we can NOT fly F at a local contest (just reread Vince's post and he wasn't sure if there was a rule or not).
 
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7008625/tm.htm
 

Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com 

	-----Original Message-----
	From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Del Rykert
	Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:09 PM
	To: NSRCA Mailing List
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
	
	
	Hi Dave
	 
	I'm not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that question. Not all people that advance through the AMA classes have the desire or deep pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI level. Some Master fliers in the past have told me the time commitment is high to be competitive in FAI class. Higher than they can accept. That may be the biggest reason. Not certain.  But they do enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters and if told they had to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to FAI some would choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues some are willing to commit to play. Some drop out after making it to intermediate. Others after reaching advanced. Some have stayed and still fly those classes but realize they don't have the time, desire, money, to move up and be challenging or at least make a decent showing they can accept for themselves. I believe the competitive factor varies with us all and what we are willing to commit to fly pattern.  
	 
	I'm even suspect their are other issues that escape us and why they are happy to fly Masters.     
	 
	    Del

		----- Original Message ----- 
		From: Dave Burton <mailto:burtona at atmc.net>  
		To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>  
		Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:10 PM
		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?


		Del, what's the difference between " FAI type" schedules and "Masters schedules"? You are correct about previous proposals not being accepted. I have submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly the P schedule and it was defeated both times. Won't do that again, but I never understood the opposition to it.

		 

		From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del Rykert
		Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24 PM
		To: NSRCA Mailing List
		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?

		 

		So it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as it has been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want to fly FAI type schedules.  It has been voted on with surveys and discussed on this list in the past to not use that approach. 

		 

		    Del 

			----- Original Message ----- 

			From: vicenterc at comcast.net 

			To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>  

			Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48 AM

			Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?

			 

			I believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days event to fly F schedule.  I am sure that someone out there is going to be able to find if I am correct or not.  Of course, we can use the AMA rules and the CD can override this if he announces the change with time.   

			 

			I agree that in Masters we should fly the current P schedule.  This will make a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A.  The rules should be changed to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA classes.  In other worlds,  Masters should not be the final destination as it is now.

			 

			--
			Vicente "Vince" Bortone

			 

				-------------- Original message -------------- 
				From: "Tony" <tony at radiosouthrc.com> 

				Those are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI.  The FAI rules state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and are not designed to be flown at a local contest.  

				 

				 

				Tony Stillman, President

				Radio South, Inc.

				139 Altama Connector, Box 322

				Brunswick, GA  31525

				1-800-962-7802

				www.radiosouthrc.com

________________________________

				From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
				Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36 AM
				To: NSRCA Mailing List
				Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?

				 

				Another good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the better we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F always just scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to learn it. Now if everyone promises no laughing I might try it.
				 From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with rollers.
				 
				Anthony
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 18422 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20080202/196b2623/attachment-0001.bin