[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals/FAI's purpose?

C. Smith dentdoc007 at comcast.net
Sat Feb 2 06:40:26 AKST 2008


The NSRCA has made GIANT strides in raising Judging standards no doubt...The
use of Power Point presentations & most important is the efforts of a few
KEY folk in the program itself..
 But what's next? How can we add to this? Do WE want to add to this? 
 
 The BEST things I have heard goes along the route IMAC is taking.. This
weekend in Jacksonville Florida IMAC is holding a 3 DAY Judging seminar..
This as I understand it will in compass Judge Instructor Certification,
Judge certification, Class room study & Practical application done during
actual flying at the field. 
 
  Jim, I know you are there. I know you to LIVE what you say.. Could you
PLEASE give a report to the list of your thoughts on how we could borrow
from this approach? 
 
    This is the BEST Solutions I have seen offered. The best thing is the
templates have been cut for us!
 
 
                              
 
       

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Woodward, Jim
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:53 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals/FAI's purpose?


Hi Guys - I was in on the first promotion of flying F07 at the Andersonville
contest.  I believe I felt some excitement in the air - and God knows
anything you can do to get "excitment" into a pattern contest MUST be some
type of step in the right direction.  I love pattern flying and have years
of posts on this list to show a pattern of it.  That day in Andersonville
Ken B. took some pictures of me standing there flying F07 as the first pilot
up, with Billy, John F., and Jason standing behind me watching.  Ken
swivelled and took photos with the entire contestant crew actually watching
the flight!  It felt special and really cool to know that for that day, FAI
captured the heart of contest and it was cool to know that we were the first
district to do it!  We talked about how cool it was to get a leg up on folks
heading into the Nationals, and also, that "our" judges were going to see
the finals pattern before anyone else. And sure, we also knew Jason was
going to lay a spank-down on us!!!!!!!!!  .... but we did it anyway....
 
What happened afterward is that myself, Ryan, Joe, Cameron, and Jason began
flying F07 at the remaining local contests.  Ryan, Joe, Cameron, and I
started getting better - no surprise right - F07 was a tough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
On a very positive note, overwhemingly that sequence and flying it with and
against Jason each time out made us better pilots.  Also, truth be told,
regarddless of this obvious skill improvement by the class, there was no
improvement in our scores.  In fact - specifically - I will reference my
flying at the 2007 District Champs contest BLEW AWAY anything else or any
time I've flown the P07/F07 sequences - which received RAW scores that were
on par or worse than ever before even considering the 2006 season.  Most
insulting, was an 894 normalized score on a round that could have been a
nats round winner of P07. And Sunday morning's F07 round which I should have
won, that normalized to a 869.  This trend basically followed the other
pilots as well in random form troughout the year.  This experience is
what/why my shot against judging went out months ago.  This was the lowest
normalized performance I'd experience in these sequences - ever.  
 
That is the story clean and simple.  Regarding F0X at local contests.  Maybe
it is time to provide another "shot" in the arm of excitement!  Maybe that
excitement would come from limiting F0X flying for a while, so that new and
old blood can come and give FAI a shot again.  Get some more guys in FAI and
let some new "Masters" blood move into the "hunt" in Masters class too.
Open up the standings a bit so just maybe some guys who are struggling in
the 3-8 positions (just an example), all of a sudden are in a serious hunt
for a trophy!  Give these guys some excitement and motivation to spend a lot
of $$$ and hit the practice field with dedication.  That may give "more"
guys a reason to get to the practice field.  However, whether F0X is or is
not flown at local contests really won't effect my participation so I
support whatever decision is made.  I'll compete either way.  
 
Obviously, I don't feel there is much to lose anymore by letting these
opinions out.  I really don't care if this offends anybody.  It doesn't
bothere me if they are consider as "crying" or "sour-grapes" or whatever you
want, however I believe I have a pretty good track record which would say
the opposite.  Go ahead, ask what I have done for the group lately...  not
much (lately)...  Go ahead, some guys chime in say I'm full of it.. Fine.
Come on back, go ahead and say 894 and 869 is where I need to be those
rounds.  Fine.  I've got it all wrong and shouldn't be in FAI.   Since I
haven't offered any solutions in a while I offer this thought:
 
The most important thing to get correct in a competition, are the
"competitive" factors. As our current crop of competitors are our most
important people, we must do everything we can to ensure "they" feel
invested in the process and outcome of the event, and equally feel there is
open/honest transparency at every level.  When competitors feel these things
are in place, they leave a contest feeling a certain level of acceptance at
the outcome, and will (get this) "bring people back" the next time.  If
competitors feel that the stage is not set for fair competition, then (get
this) they "take people with them" and they don't come back.  I don't think
it would hurt to have a complete reinvestment in judge-training, and judge
practical training at contests.  Beyond the actual knowledge, the moral
imperity of strict adherance to the judging code of ethics should be
enshrined in all of us and be a tremendous source of pride.
 
Maybe I've got it all wrong and its just time for me to move on.  Just some
ideas.
 
Jim W.
 
 



 
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  _____  




From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us on behalf of JShulman
Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 9:40 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals/FAI's purpose?


One thing I think everyone can agree on is we will never please everyone
flying pattern. I try not to put my nose in the business of the lower
classes because I don't fly them. Technically I could move back down to
Advanced (hmmm, maybe if we can't fly F anymore, I'll challenge myself this
way...lol), but I want to fly FAI. Last time I checked, FAI consists of 2
sequences, a P and an F. When I started pattern, my goal was to be an FAI
pilot. Once I started flying FAI, my goal then became to be the best FAI
pilot I could so I could make the US Team. Next goal is to become part of
the US Team Champions again and a World Champion. Others I know what to fly
FAI because of the challenge. Some of them have time to dedicate to the
goal, and others don't. The one's that don't, still fly it because of the
challenge, regardless of how they place. I just read the RCU thread about F
at local contests and am going to quote Chad cause I like the way he wrote
what he did (sorry Chad). "FAI is the pinnacle of pattern competition, most
who fly in that class do so because they want to achieve a very high level
of proficiency in their flying. You do that with challenging sequences, that
challenge the pilots to their limit. Those that do not want to commit that
amount of time and effort have other classes such as Masters which is a very
tough and competitive class, and gives nothing up to the FAI P schedule (IMO
of course)." 
 
Would flying P and F really scare away pilots? or just scare them from
flying FAI? If pilots can't dedicate time to fly F, where are they getting
time to fly P/Masters? When FAI first introduced rolling circles and loops,
the option to move to Masters was well used. FAI is a 2 sequence class, P
and F, and now the Worlds results, Team and Individual, are based off of
BOTH P and F. Why shouldn't we do our part for FAI pilots to be the best
prepared for this challenge? How do we prepare for the Nats/TT by only
flying P? Should the Nats/TT be a P only contest so we can have more pilots
entered? I am very thankful that D3 started flying F at local contests. It
gave me more confidence when going to both the Nats and the Worlds (even
though Worlds scores don't show it). 
 
I think I'm just a bit confused as to what the goal of/for FAI pilots are
now. And now I'm also confused as to if there is a rule that says we can NOT
fly F at a local contest (just reread Vince's post and he wasn't sure if
there was a rule or not).
 
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7008625/tm.htm
 

Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Del Rykert
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:09 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?


Hi Dave
 
I'm not trying to imply that I have the correct answer to that question. Not
all people that advance through the AMA classes have the desire or deep
pockets to handle being competitive at the FAI level. Some Master fliers in
the past have told me the time commitment is high to be competitive in FAI
class. Higher than they can accept. That may be the biggest reason. Not
certain.  But they do enjoy the difficulty and challenge of flying masters
and if told they had to move to FAI or if pointed out and made to move up to
FAI some would choose to leave. I see it as part of the dues some are
willing to commit to play. Some drop out after making it to intermediate.
Others after reaching advanced. Some have stayed and still fly those classes
but realize they don't have the time, desire, money, to move up and be
challenging or at least make a decent showing they can accept for
themselves. I believe the competitive factor varies with us all and what we
are willing to commit to fly pattern.  
 
I'm even suspect their are other issues that escape us and why they are
happy to fly Masters.     
 
    Del

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dave Burton <mailto:burtona at atmc.net>  
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>  
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?


Del, what's the difference between " FAI type" schedules and "Masters
schedules"? You are correct about previous proposals not being accepted. I
have submitted a rules change twice for Masters to fly the P schedule and it
was defeated both times. Won't do that again, but I never understood the
opposition to it.

 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del Rykert
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?

 

So it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as it has
been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want to fly FAI
type schedules.  It has been voted on with surveys and discussed on this
list in the past to not use that approach. 

 

    Del 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: vicenterc at comcast.net 

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>  

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?

 

I believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days event
to fly F schedule.  I am sure that someone out there is going to be able to
find if I am correct or not.  Of course, we can use the AMA rules and the CD
can override this if he announces the change with time.   

 

I agree that in Masters we should fly the current P schedule.  This will
make a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A.  The rules should be
changed to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA classes.  In
other worlds,  Masters should not be the final destination as it is now.

 

--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone

 

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Tony" <tony at radiosouthrc.com> 

Those are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI.  The FAI rules state
that the F patterns are for Regional, National and International events, and
are not designed to be flown at a local contest.  

 

 

Tony Stillman, President

Radio South, Inc.

139 Altama Connector, Box 322

Brunswick, GA  31525

1-800-962-7802

www.radiosouthrc.com

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony
Romano
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?

 

Another good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the better
we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity but the F
always just scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year will be to
learn it. Now if everyone promises no laughing I might try it.
 From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.
 
Anthony

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