[NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship - Scoring System Overhaul

[Mike Hester]

Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship - Scoring System Overhaul"Evil incompetent" was just a sarcastic joke, for those who may have missed that. I was trying to bring a little levity to a bad situation. trust me, I see the frustration and see the problem. We just need to work together to fix it. TOGETHER!

Yep we have every single entered score. For every class. We already pulled some and did some crunching. They are an open book as far as I'm concerned and we'll be happy to share anything that you guys would like to see. be warned, some of it is pretty gruesome.

BTW I was right, I actually had Ryan beating you in round one by around 20 points on the raw. Using my scores alone Ryan won the round. (No disrespect intended towards the other judge, just fact). The columns were reversed since most people get lazy and don't initial thier score sheets. IMHO, that's probably the easiest thing to address so let's work a little harder to enforce it. We're supposed to be doing that anyway, but sometimes we all get lazy locally. let's fix that one first. because as it stands without the actual hand written sheets, I only know for a fact who a few judge's scores are.

And I agree with you. We DO have a very competent pool of judges, we simply have a few issues to address if we are to continue to improve as a district, as pilots and as judges. So let's work on it?

I for one am willing to let the FAI guys at my contest next year choose thier own judges. All pilots must be present and all it takes is one veto and the judge is not used. It doesn't have to be a public spectacle, but perhaps we already have some solutions. There are a lot of guys getting it "right". The ones that are presumed getting it wrong, I'm sure just need a bit of discussion on the subject.

I am totally 110% in support of the problem being solved, I am just not in favor of the "scorched earth" method used to get our attention.

But now that it's on the table, let's just move forward as a group....all of us.

Let me know exactly what is needed from me and I will do everything I can to help find some solutions.

-Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JShulman 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 11:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship - Scoring System Overhaul


  I think this (below in red) has been what we (FAI and Masters guys at the contest) had been discussing all weekend. There are rounds when I'm not on my game and these guys are. Unfortunately sometimes they are not rewarded for their flying when they fly well.

  As per Ryan's post:

  1. Sacrifice one FAI round per contest to serve as an "open" round for all contestants expected to judge FAI during the event.  Allow everyone to compare notes and use this as a coaching opportunity.

  Sounds promising and educational at the cost of maybe a little bit of time depending on how the flight lines are run.
  2.  Drop one FAI pilot to Masters at each contest to serve as a judge for all rounds and use volunteers from other classes to serve as the others.  This would have to be an agreement made among FAI pilots.

  If by drop he means not flying in the contest and being a dedicated judge, sounds fine.
  3.  Extend the pilots meeting to go over specific issues, maybe a new one or two every meet rather than just pointing out the landing zone, etc.  Make a "mini" judging seminar mandatory each contest.

  This could also be done while flying is going on. Might have to repeat for others that have missed parts, but if they're interested, repeat away.
  4.  Certify judges for FAI on a volunteer basis and only use "certified" judges in the contest. 

  Somehow I'm not sure this will happen, but sounds good if you can find enough dedicated judges.
  5.  Utilize peer judging, in other words, have FAI pilots judge themselves.  If a pilot is not flying, he is judging his fellow competitors.

  hehehehehe, the Masters guys are reading this and they are all in favor...lol.

  Mike H, does Melissa still have the scores from this weekend? If so, could she pull each judges final scores, like Jim suggested in #1, as a final score and see if anything changes? 12 rounds of normalized scores. That sounds pretty interesting as well. And we, FAI pilots here in D3, aren't out for anyone's head, we are just trying to help improve pattern judging. "Evil incompetent"? Please. Remember, you had Ryan and I with-in 1 point on that first round of P! We, as a District, have made far too many strides in becoming one of the most fun Districts (and best if I dare say...lol) around. I, like these guys, just want to make sure that we continue in these ways.

  Regards,
  Jason
  www.jasonshulman.com
  www.shulmanaviation.com
  www.composite-arf.com 

    -----Original Message-----
    From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Mark Atwood
    Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:11 AM
    To: NSRCA Mailing List
    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship - Scoring System Overhaul


    George and I spent some considerable email on this in the past, but aren't we confusing the statistical relevance of saying "Pilot A is better than Pilot B" (which clearly there is not enough math to support) vs "Pilot A was scored better than Pilot B today in round 1"??    

    The quality of the score...is a completely independent issue from whether or not the score itself is valid.  My ability to judge the same maneuver as an 7 every time is one component (and a challenging one to say the least), not to mention whether or not the "7" is the correct score.    But the math that says that 7,7,7,7,7 loses to 7,7,8,7,7 is pretty sound.  Is the second guy a better flyer?  Statistically no...they're equal.  But in that round he scored better.  Period.  At the end of the day, this is a subjective sport.  Our objective guidelines are there to help with consistency, but bottom line, presentation IS part of the program...so by definition, the guy I (the judge) think won...won.   

    Maybe we need to do some google-ing on Olympic scoring...clearly they have the same issue with a LOT more people watching....

    That said...I'm all in favor of reviewing everything Jim has brought to the table.  

    -Mark



        > ---- "Woodward wrote: 
        > > Guys - 
        > > 
        > > 1. Why do we average judge's scores together? 
        > > 
        > > b. Why not just let each judge's score stand as! is,  
        > > unaltered, and produce two normalized scores per round? 
        > > d. You would basically have two sets of scores per round. 
        > > IE you may end up with 1000 points on one card, and an 800 on the other. 




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  NSRCA-discussion mailing list
  NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20071018/9649e09b/attachment.html