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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Evil incompetent" was just a sarcastic joke, for
those who may have missed that. I was trying to bring a little levity to a bad
situation. trust me, I see the frustration and see the problem. We just need to
work together to fix it. TOGETHER!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yep we have every single entered score. For every
class. We already pulled some and did some crunching. They are an open book as
far as I'm concerned and we'll be happy to share anything that you guys would
like to see. be warned, some of it is pretty gruesome.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BTW I was right, I actually had Ryan beating you in
round one by around 20 points on the raw. Using my scores alone Ryan won
the round. (No disrespect intended towards the other judge, just fact). The
columns were reversed since most people get lazy and don't initial thier score
sheets. IMHO, that's probably the easiest thing to address so let's work a
little harder to enforce it. We're supposed to be doing that anyway, but
sometimes we all get lazy locally. let's fix that one first. because as it
stands without the actual hand written sheets, I only know for a fact who a
few judge's scores are.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And I agree with you. We DO have a very competent
pool of judges, we simply have a few issues to address if we are to continue to
improve as a district, as pilots and as judges. So let's work on
it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I for one am willing to let the FAI guys at my
contest next year choose thier own judges. All pilots must be present and all it
takes is one veto and the judge is not used. It doesn't have to be a public
spectacle, but perhaps we already have some solutions. There are a lot of guys
getting it "right". The ones that are presumed getting it wrong, I'm sure just
need a bit of discussion on the subject.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am totally 110% in support of the problem being
solved, I am just not in favor of the "scorched earth" method used to get our
attention.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But now that it's on the table, let's just move
forward as a group....all of us.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Let me know exactly what is needed from me and I
will do everything I can to help find some solutions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-Mike</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jshulman@cfl.rr.com href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">JShulman</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 18, 2007 11:46
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3
Championship - Scoring System Overhaul</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=110052115-18102007>I think
this (below in <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>red</STRONG></FONT>) has been
what we (FAI and Masters guys at the contest) had been discussing
all weekend. There are rounds when I'm not on my game and these guys are.
Unfortunately sometimes they are not rewarded for their flying when they fly
well.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=110052115-18102007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=110052115-18102007>As per
Ryan's post:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=110052115-18102007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=110052115-18102007>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>1. Sacrifice one FAI round per contest to
serve as an "open" round for all contestants expected to judge FAI during the
event. Allow everyone to compare notes and use this as a coaching
opportunity.</FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110052115-18102007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Sounds
promising and educational at the cost of maybe a little bit of time depending
on how the flight lines are run.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>2. Drop one FAI pilot to Masters at
each contest to serve as a judge for all rounds and use volunteers from other
classes to serve as the others. This would have to be an agreement made
among FAI pilots.</FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110052115-18102007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>If by drop
he means not flying in the contest and being a dedicated judge, sounds
fine.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>3. Extend the pilots meeting to go
over specific issues, maybe a new one or two every meet rather than just
pointing out the landing zone, etc. Make a "mini" judging seminar
mandatory each contest.</FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110052115-18102007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>This could
also be done while flying is going on. Might have to repeat for others that
have missed parts, but if they're interested, repeat away.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff>4. Certify judges for FAI on a
volunteer basis and only use "certified" judges in the contest.
</FONT></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110052115-18102007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Somehow I'm
not sure this will happen, but sounds good if you can find enough dedicated
judges.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>5. Utilize peer judging, in other
words, have FAI pilots judge themselves. If a pilot is not flying, he is
judging his fellow competitors.</FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110052115-18102007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>hehehehehe,
the Masters guys are reading this and they are all in
favor...lol.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV></SPAN></FONT><SPAN class=110052115-18102007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff>Mike H, does Melissa still have the scores from this weekend? If
so, could she pull each judges final scores, like Jim suggested in #1, as a
final score and see if anything changes? 12 rounds of normalized
scores. That sounds pretty interesting as well. And we, FAI pilots here
in D3, aren't out for anyone's head, we are just trying to help improve
pattern judging. "Evil incompetent"? Please. Remember, you had Ryan and I
with-in 1 point on that first round of P! We, as a District, have made far too
many strides in becoming one of the most fun Districts (and best if I
dare say...lol) around. I, like these guys, just want to make sure that we
continue in these ways.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT
size=2>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com</FONT>
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark
Atwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:11 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship
- Scoring System Overhaul<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">George and I
spent some considerable email on this in the past, but aren’t we confusing
the statistical relevance of saying “Pilot A is better than Pilot B” (which
clearly there is not enough math to support) vs “Pilot A was scored better
than Pilot B today in round 1”?? <BR><BR>The quality of
the score...is a completely independent issue from whether or not the score
itself is valid. My ability to judge the same maneuver as an 7 every
time is one component (and a challenging one to say the least), not to
mention whether or not the “7” is the correct score. But
the math that says that 7,7,7,7,7 loses to 7,7,8,7,7 is pretty sound.
<FONT color=#ff0000 size=3><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Is the second
guy a better flyer?</FONT> <FONT color=#000000 size=2>Statistically
no...they’re equal.</FONT><STRONG> But in that round he scored
better.</STRONG></FONT> Period. At the end of the day, this is a
subjective sport. Our objective guidelines are there to help with
consistency, but bottom line, presentation IS part of the program...so by
definition, the guy I (the judge) think won...won. <BR><BR>Maybe
we need to do some google-ing on Olympic scoring...clearly they have the
same issue with a LOT more people watching....<BR><BR>That said...I’m all in
favor of reviewing everything Jim has brought to the table.
<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
<DIV><BR>> ---- "Woodward wrote: <BR>> > Guys - <BR>> >
<BR>> > 1. Why do we average judge's scores together? <BR>>
> <BR>> > <STRONG>b. Why not just let each judge's score stand
as! is</STRONG>, <SPAN class=110052115-18102007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=3> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><B>> > unaltered, and produce two normalized scores per
round? <BR>> > d. You would basically have two sets of scores per
round. <BR>> > IE you may end up with 1000 points on one card, and
an 800 on the other. <BR><BR></DIV></B></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT
face="Monaco, Courier New"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10px"></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
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