[NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines, and Box Definition

Wed May 16 18:41:22 AKDT 2007

Don,

I agree with that assessment.  I was making statement to sitting directly behind the contestant and referencing from that perspective.  In the '05 NATS I was judging the Masters class I was directly behind the pilot so both sides looked equal to me.  I though the other two judges would sit left and right of me.  But they both sat to the left of me and the contestant to avoid being in the sun.  I guess you then have to really calibrate if you are offset that far.  I just didn't think it was fair to the pilot that they were that far offset.  Hopefully they took that into consideration.  I wish I could have seen the turn around scores for that round compared to mine.

Wayne

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Don Ramsey 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

  Georgie is corect, if you are sitting to the left of the pilot and the the turnaround is at the left then the box is actually a little short of the pole if he is inside 150 meters, at the pole if at 150 meters and a past the pole if he is outside 150 meters.  You have to extend the line from the pilot to the box pole and beyond to make an accurate judgment on the box.  This is calibration, each judge should do it.

  Don

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: george w. kennie 
    To: NSRCA Mailing List 
    Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:49 PM
    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

    Lance,
    The only time this becomes an issue is when the pilot is flying beyond the 150 meter distance. AT the 150 distance there is correspondance, inside of that distance, if the pilot touches the pole, he has violated the box.
    You need to draw this out to scale on a good sized sheet of paper and it will become apparent.
    G.

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Lance Van Nostrand 
      To: NSRCA Mailing List 
      Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 8:52 PM
      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

      Tony,

      I don't agree that the view of the pilot and judge are the same.  I have a habit, taught to me by senior judges in d6 long ago, that I do when judging.  Before sitting down I stand in the pilot station and look at the poles( best) or a landmark on the box lines.  then I sit and look again.  I think it is amazing how even a 10 ft judge setback can change the perception of the box line.  I know a lot of pilots that like to stretch the box and scrape the edges on turnarounds so its important to recognize even small parallax issues.

      BTW Matt, there were 2 judging seminars in D6. One in Temple and one in Albuquerque.  So many choices, it can be hard to choose.

      --Lance
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Matthew Frederick 
        To: NSRCA Mailing List 
        Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45 AM
        Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

        Thank you, Tony. My point exactly. I'm glad someone else realized that I was not asking for help on how to avoid breaking the box, but just trying to bring up a potential problem with box size judging based on simple geometry. Even though seminars are making judging more uniform, there are still people like me who just flat-out can't make a 10-hour drive to a contest just so they can attend a seminar. The website is helpful; but open, ongoing discussion on these topics will keep them fresh in our minds.

        Matt
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Tony Stillman 
          To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' 
          Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:44 AM
          Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

          Matt:
          This is something I have spoken about several times.  The poles are there for the JUDGES.  The lines are for the PILOTS.  If the poles cannot be place on their proper location, THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED!  This if because of the very thing that you are talking about.  If the poles are at the 150 meter out location, the difference between the view of the pilot and the judges, even if they are 25 feet behind the pilot, are virtually the same.  The closer you bring in the poles, but more of an error you will create.  

          Tony Stillman, President

          Radio South

          3702 N. Pace Blvd

          Pensacola, FL 32505

          1-800-962-7802

          www.radiosouthrc.com

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          From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Frederick
          Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:29 PM
          To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
          Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

          OK, this forum has been too quiet lately, so let's get some controversy going! This comment/question is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would appreciate everyone's opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the contest where what I'm about to describe happened. What I'm talking about here is the positioning of judges behind the pilot. Under most circumstances the judges are positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind the pilot with each judge's seat placed on (or very close to) one of the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest I attended last week the judges apparently decided it was too hot out there on the actual flight line, and they moved their chairs about 15-20 feet behind the pilot in the shade of the shed at this particular field. My question is, should this be something that is allowed since the judges' chairs define the zero line of the flight line (and moving it back this far puts spectators in danger), and also because it gives the judges an even more skewed view of the 60-degree lines than they already have? I bring this up partly because of what Don wrote in this month's K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for busting the box by these "displaced" (in Louisiana we call them refugees) judges when in fact, I knew I was close to the edge, but since I was actually standing on the line, I knew I didn't bust it. As a pilot I should not have to adjust the size of the box that I'm permitted to fly in just so the judges can be more comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat and humidity of Louisiana is relative). I didn't bring it up at the contest because by the time it bit me, it was too late to complain. In the future, however, I think there need to be rules regarding the positioning of judges if there aren't already, and if there are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce them, and you can bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far behind me. Then again, I also think the close edge of the runway should be the zero line on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a little (ok, a lot) of math to figure out how much box a pilot would be missing out on with the judges postitioned 15 feet behind him. Using approximated numbers from the contest in question I calculated that if the poles are 40 feet out from the pilot, and the judges are 15 feet behind the pilot, the box size at 150 meters (which is 259.81m) based on the judges' point of view is reduced by 232.61 feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have been even greater if the poles were closer in or the judges were further back.

          Matt

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