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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Don,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree with that assessment. I was making
statement to sitting directly behind the contestant and referencing from that
perspective. In the '05 NATS I was judging the Masters class I was
directly behind the pilot so both sides looked equal to me. I though the
other two judges would sit left and right of me. But they both sat to the
left of me and the contestant to avoid being in the sun. I guess you then
have to really calibrate if you are offset that far. I just didn't think
it was fair to the pilot that they were that far offset. Hopefully they
took that into consideration. I wish I could have seen the turn around
scores for that round compared to mine.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donramsey@gmail.com href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com">Don Ramsey</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:04
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Georgie is corect, if you are sitting to the left of the
pilot and the the turnaround is at the left then the box is actually
a little short of the pole if he is inside 150 meters, at the pole
if at 150 meters and a past the pole if he is outside 150
meters. You have to extend the line from the pilot to the box pole and
beyond to make an accurate judgment on the box. This is calibration,
each judge should do it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:49
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lance,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The only time this becomes an issue is when the
pilot is flying beyond the 150 meter distance. AT the 150 distance there is
correspondance, inside of that distance, if the pilot touches the pole, he
has violated the box.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You need to draw this out to scale on a good
sized sheet of paper and it will become apparent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@tx.rr.com href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com">Lance
Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 8:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tony,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't agree that the view of the pilot and
judge are the same. I have a habit, taught to me by senior judges in
d6 long ago, that I do when judging. Before sitting down I stand in
the pilot station and look at the poles( best) or a landmark on the box
lines. then I sit and look again. I think it is amazing how
even a 10 ft judge setback can change the perception of the box
line. I know a lot of pilots that like to stretch the box and scrape
the edges on turnarounds so its important to recognize even small parallax
issues.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BTW Matt, there were 2 judging seminars in
D6. One in Temple and one in Albuquerque. So many choices, it can be
hard to choose.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you, Tony. My point exactly. I'm glad
someone else realized that I was not asking for help on how to avoid
breaking the box, but just trying to bring up a potential problem with
box size judging based on simple geometry. Even though seminars are
making judging more uniform, there are still people like me who just
flat-out can't make a 10-hour drive to a contest just so they can attend
a seminar. The website is helpful; but open, ongoing discussion on these
topics will keep them fresh in our minds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tony@radiosouthrc.com
href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com">Tony Stillman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing
List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 14, 2007 8:44
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt:<BR>This
is something I have spoken about several times. The poles are
there for the JUDGES. The lines are for the PILOTS. If the
poles cannot be place on their proper location, THEY SHOULD NOT BE
USED! This if because of the very thing that you are talking
about. If the poles are at the 150 meter out location, the
difference between the view of the pilot and the judges, even if they
are 25 feet behind the pilot, are virtually the same. The closer
you bring in the poles, but more of an error you will create.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Tony Stillman,
President<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Radio
South<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><FONT
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Blvd</SPAN></FONT></st1:address></st1:Street><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Pensacola</SPAN></FONT></st1:City><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">, <st1:State
w:st="on">FL</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">32505</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">1-800-962-7802<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">www.radiosouthrc.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Matthew
Frederick<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:29 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box
Definition</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">OK, this forum has been
too quiet lately, so let's get some controversy going! This
comment/question is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would
appreciate everyone's opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the
contest where what I'm about to describe happened. What I'm talking
about here is the positioning of judges behind the pilot. Under most
circumstances the judges are positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind the
pilot with each judge's seat placed on (or very close to) one of
the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest I attended last week the judges
apparently decided it was too hot out there on the actual flight line,
and they moved their chairs about 15-20 feet behind the pilot in the
shade of the shed at this particular field. My question is, should
this be something that is allowed since the judges' chairs define the
zero line of the flight line (and moving it back this far puts
spectators in danger), and also because it gives the judges an even
more skewed view of the 60-degree lines than they already have? I
bring this up partly because of what Don wrote in this month's
K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for busting the box by these
"displaced" (in Louisiana we call them refugees) judges when in
fact, I knew I was close to the edge, but since I was actually
standing on the line, I knew I didn't bust it. As a pilot I should not
have to adjust the size of the box that I'm permitted to fly in just
so the judges can be more comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat
and humidity of <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Louisiana</st1:place></st1:State> is relative). I didn't
bring it up at the contest because by the time it bit me, it was too
late to complain. In the future, however, I think there need to be
rules regarding the positioning of judges if there aren't already, and
if there are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce them, and
you can bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far behind
me. Then again, I also think the close edge of the runway should be
the zero line on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a little
(ok, a lot) of math to figure out how much box a pilot would
be missing out on with the judges postitioned 15 feet behind him.
Using approximated numbers from the contest in question I calculated
that if the poles are 40 feet out from the pilot, and the judges are
15 feet behind the pilot, the box size at 150 meters (which is
259.81m) based on the judges' point of view is reduced by 232.61
feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have been even greater if the
poles were closer in or the judges were further
back.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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