[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA contrubution to nationals
Derek Koopowitz
derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
Wed May 2 17:13:10 AKDT 2007
Well if Red Lobster can accommodate 100 people at once then I'd be more than
happy to look into it... :-) Do they even have a Red Lobster in Muncie?
My vote would be the Texas Roadhouse...
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred Huber
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:55 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA contrubution to nationals
Someone needs to review the menu... $23.55 per person for foood should get
steak and Lobster. Just read the menu at Red Lobster.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Van Putte <mailto:vanputte at cox.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA contrubution to nationals
The following is an excerpt from an e-mail from Randa Coats at AMA, "Your
banquet total last year was around $4500.00. The charges were as follows
$100 for AV equipment rental, $250 for building rental, $3532.50 for food
for 150 people (breaks down to about $23.55 per person) and then a service
charge of $671.18. All banquets held there last year were a bit pricier
than usual."
AMA organized the banquet, as well as arranging for meeting rooms for judge
certification and the NSRCA board meeting.
Ron Van Putte
On May 2, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Grow Pattern wrote:
I was talking about 2005 not 2006.
You know I wasn't asking or referring to 2006, but now you come to mention
it and you have, as you say, exact information on how much money was spent,
What was the cost breakdown for the 2006 banquet
I ask because this number is being used as a "decision maker" and we should
know exactly how it was derived.
I'd like to know, as an NSRCA member, exactly how much the items cost for
the 2006 banquet and how much we collected. You should know exactly the meal
cost, the room rental, the audio equipment cost etc.
To be $34 per head prices, must have gone up considerably since 2005!
The NSRCA did roll up all of the costs that I mentioned below into one
figure in 2005. The meal was pretty close to $25 per head. The tickets were
$25 per head per adult with 10 free tickets.
If it was $34 a head are you saying that we subsidized the meal in 2006?
Before you do your usual on me, try and remember that the example that I
gave below, was how a specific number was arrived at but when you took it
apart the conclusion you could draw could be very different than the point
that was originally being made.
Regards,
Eric.
P.S. I almost forgot, did the NSRCA organize the banquet or did they hand
that job over to the AMA?
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Koopowitz <mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA contrubution to nationals
Just to be clear - we know exactly how much money we spend on the Nats for
each of the items that Eric has outlined below. We have the bills from the
AMA which shows how much the actual dinner cost us - including rental of the
facility. Trophies and awards are NOT included in that cost as they are
separate. The $34 per head cost was based purely on the convention center
cost. There are no hidden/extra costs included in that amount.
This year we've budgeted $3500 for the banquet - so whatever bill we get
from the country club will hopefully be close to that amount (or less).
Here is our budget (May K-F):
NATS Expenses
Awards 800.00
Banquet 3,500.00
Event Director 600.00
Impound Personnel 300.00
Judges 1,000.00
Line Manager Site 1 240.00
Line Manager Site 3 240.00
Line Manager Site 4 240.00
Meeting Expenses 350.00
NSCRA Award BBQ 1,000.00
Planning Meeting 450.00
Postage 80.00
Scoring HQ 300.00
Scoring Site 4 180.00
Site 1 Site Director 240.00
Site 3 Site Director 240.00
Site 4 Site Director 240.00
Supplies 250.00
TOTAL NATS Expenses 10,250.00
Hopefully we break even on this...
On 5/2/07, Grow Pattern <pattern4u at comcast.net> wrote:
What I worry and wonder about the most is how we just accept a number and
then beat the death out of something when there is no real data, or the data
is suspect or even wrong in the first place.
The first number that I read was that the AMA lost $25K running the Nat's.
Then later on I read that they had not been tracking it very well. That
should immediately raise a doubt about the number of $25K.
- Then I began to wonder if the number included the two locations that are
used to run the Nat's. (Not all of te Nat's is run at Muncie).
- Then I thought about the running costs of the AMA site at Muncie. After
all, It runs whether the Nat's are there or not. So if we extract ONLY the
additional Nationals related costs only, what are they really?
- Beyond the field, maintenance what is the EXTRA cost to the AMA associated
with the running all of the events that constitute a Nationals.
- Then I asked myself what are the costs related to just running PATTERN. Do
they have contest related equipment already, or do they buy new stuff such
as tents etc. just for us.
- I know that they put out the box poles and provide some PA equipment, but
are extra summer workers hired for just us? and what is the cost for the
four days that we are there.
============================================================================
==========================================
In my business life I have seen numbers used to prove many a point ,but
almost every time the numbers did not hold up to close examination.
In our case (pattern). In 2005 we raised around $10,400 in pattern entry
fees. ( I say "around" because there are a few late-entry fee entries that
are twice the normal fee and are hard to track). Our important number is
that we received $ $6755 from the AMA after they took their cut. The AMA's
important number is that they receive the balance which as a round number of
was in the region of $3600.
Is that enough to cover what we cost them? The year before the AMA claimed
that they had lost $12,000 running the Nat's. Now it is a $25,000 loss. The
only action that I know of that took place was to increase the AMA entrance
fee portion by $10.
- What is more important is to ask what;
a) Difference did the fee increase make, and
b) Why did the costs still go up so much.
c) Was anything done to reduce costs.
The real problem is that what you are being fed as factual money data is
"roll-up-accounting" at its worst. The devil may be in the details but so is
the answer. You cannot solve a fiscal problem if you don't know which part
is failing or broken.
============================================================================
==========================================
Accounting roll-ups are the real emery of all good decision making.
Let me give you a small example of what I mean. I am familiar with the
Pattern Nat's banquet. I read in the K-factor that the banquet cost was too
high and that another venue, [probably the golf club] would be used again.
The number used was something like $34 a head and we should not subsidize
the meal. This looked similar to the 2005 number that I managed. On the
surface of it looked like good logic. BUT I happen to know also that a bunch
of other costs were dumped into the "banquet bucket" in 2005.
The true cost of the banquet meal is the vendor charge minus the money
collected for meal tickets. In short,we collected $2,560 from 112.5 people.
(This was comprised of adult meals, kids meals and 10 comp. tickets for
people like the Event director plus wife, AMA Contest director plus wife,
other key AMA officials and the HQ scoring staff plus guest. The tickets
were $25 per head. The NSRCA subsidized the actual meal by $250.
Now for the hidden costs! the NSRCA holds and hosts a general meeting at
the Banquet so it eats the costs for the hall ($200 and microphone/podium
stuff etc.) reasonable so far. Then you add any trophies and awards etc.
Then the cost for the NSRCA board meeting the night before, (we feed them
way past midnight) was put in there. And then the costs for the finals
"free" meal and awards ceremony. [Note- NSRCA trophies we pay for. AMA
trophies we do not].
All of these relatively small items gradually pushed the "roll-up accounting
banquet" number up to nearly $4000.
Now you have a number that you can divide, say by 115 contestants and you
get $34. It is a good number that good people can and will tie their
argument to, but it is just plain WRONG data that give a wrong conclusion.
Back to the shop.
Regards,
Eric.
From: <mailto:JAStebbins at worldnet.att.net> Jerry Stebbins
To: <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> Discussion -NSRCA
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 5:26 PM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Muncie's reason to exist
Tony,I do know, and as voiced by others around at the time, that Muncie was
defined, justified and implemented as a common location to hold AMA NATS
Events. Whatever else it did, or could do, was secondary.
That being the case, why isn't the real question "How do we expand all the
NATS and cover any associated expenses".
We have heard these same old complaints about the NATS for many years, and
yet the EC seems to let them fester, rather than solving them.
I also have heard threats that if "it" don't get fixed then the NATS will go
away. I have news for that position-if AMA takes that road--they will go
away since they could not stand a large Membership reduction. They could
quickly be replaced by a new viable "service the membership" organization
holding all the NATS! Maybe that is what they want?
Wonder what the Greater Muncie CoC would have to say about that?
The cost deficit I have heard has always been expressed based upon
Membership $. What about the large $s given to AMA every year by
donations/bequests, and what about Event fees? How about all the revenue
taken in from the family members and contestants on shirts/caps/whatever,
and at the Museum? Don't they all provide additional resources, or are new
tasks/jobs created to absorb them. Maybe the answer is to reduce overall AMA
growth/costs.
The majority of facilities/support items (tents,tables,trailers,chairs,etc.)
used to support the NATS are already sunk costs-with typical periodic
maintenance or replacement costs.
What is it that "doesn't get done" for the time when a few staff support the
NATS, rather than their "normal" jobs?
It would be interesting to hear a candid position of each Member of the EC,
to see what they actually think
the role of AMA at Muncie is.
It sounds like they may have in mind a totally different mission for Muncie
than was originally defined.
Looks like that would be a good project for AMA Members from each AMA
District to find out.
In any case it smells like AMA is moving away from a "service the
Membership" mentality, and towards a "do more-different/create more" growth
business mentality, using complaints/costs as a justification.
Jerry
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