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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=625551101-03052007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Well if Red Lobster can accommodate 100 people at once then
I'd be more than happy to look into it... :-) Do they even have a Red
Lobster in Muncie?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=625551101-03052007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=625551101-03052007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>My vote would be the Texas
Roadhouse...</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Fred
Huber<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:55 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA contrubution to
nationals<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Someone needs to review the menu... $23.55 per person for
foood should get steak and Lobster. Just read the menu at Red
Lobster.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vanputte@cox.net href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">Ron Van Putte</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:21
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA
contrubution to nationals</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>The following is an excerpt from an e-mail from Randa Coats at
AMA, "Your banquet total last year was around $4500.00. The charges
were as follows $100 for AV equipment rental, $250 for building rental,
$3532.50 for food for 150 people (breaks down to about $23.55 per person)
and then a service charge of $671.18. All banquets held there last
year were a bit pricier than usual."
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>AMA organized the banquet, as well as arranging for meeting rooms for
judge certification and the NSRCA board meeting.
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>Ron Van Putte
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On May 2, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Grow Pattern wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was talking about 2005 not 2006.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You know I wasn't asking or referring to 2006,
but now you come to mention it and you have, as you say, exact information
on how much money was spent, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>What was the cost breakdown for
the 2006 banquet</STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>I ask because this number is being
used as a "decision maker" and we should know exactly how it was
derived.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'd like to know, as an
NSRCA member, exactly how much the items cost for the 2006 banquet
and how much we collected. You should know exactly the meal cost, the room
rental, the audio equipment cost etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To be $34 per head prices, must have gone
up considerably since 2005!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The NSRCA did roll up all of the costs that I
mentioned below into one figure in 2005. The meal was pretty close
to $25 per head. The tickets were $25 per head per adult with 10
free tickets.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If it was $34 a head are you saying that we
subsidized the meal in 2006?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Before you do your usual on me, try and
remember that the example that I gave below, was how a specific number was
arrived at but when you took it apart the conclusion you could draw could be
very different than the point that was originally being made.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><BR>Eric.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>P.S. I almost forgot, did the NSRCA
organize the banquet or did they hand that job over to the
AMA?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=derekkoopowitz@gmail.com
href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">Derek Koopowitz</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA
contrubution to nationals</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Just to be clear - we know exactly how much money we spend on the
Nats for each of the items that Eric has outlined below. We have the
bills from the AMA which shows how much the actual dinner cost us -
including rental of the facility. Trophies and awards are NOT
included in that cost as they are separate. The $34 per head cost
was based purely on the convention center cost. There are no
hidden/extra costs included in that amount. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This year we've budgeted $3500 for the banquet - so whatever bill we
get from the country club will hopefully be close to that amount (or
less).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is our budget (May K-F):</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT face=Arial size=1>
<P align=left>NATS Expenses</P>
<P align=left>Awards 800.00</P>
<P align=left>Banquet 3,500.00</P>
<P align=left>Event Director 600.00</P>
<P align=left>Impound Personnel 300.00</P>
<P align=left>Judges 1,000.00</P>
<P align=left>Line Manager Site 1 240.00</P>
<P align=left>Line Manager Site 3 240.00</P>
<P align=left>Line Manager Site 4 240.00</P>
<P align=left>Meeting Expenses 350.00</P>
<P align=left>NSCRA Award BBQ 1,000.00</P>
<P align=left>Planning Meeting 450.00</P>
<P align=left>Postage 80.00</P>
<P align=left>Scoring HQ 300.00</P>
<P align=left>Scoring Site 4 180.00</P>
<P align=left>Site 1 Site Director 240.00</P>
<P align=left>Site 3 Site Director 240.00</P>
<P align=left>Site 4 Site Director 240.00</P>
<P align=left>Supplies 250.00</P>
<P align=left>TOTAL NATS Expenses 10,250.00</P>
<DIV></DIV></FONT>Hopefully we break even on this...
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 5/2/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Grow
Pattern</B> <<A
href="mailto:pattern4u@comcast.net">pattern4u@comcast.net</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV>What I worry and wonder about the most is how we just accept a
number and then beat the death out of something when there is no
real data, or the data is suspect or even wrong in the
first place. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The first number that I read was that the AMA lost $25K running the
Nat's. Then later on I read that they had not been tracking it very
well. That should immediately raise a doubt about the number of
$25K.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Then I began to wonder if the number included the two locations
that are used to run the Nat's. (Not all of te Nat's is run at
Muncie). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Then I thought about the running costs of the AMA site at Muncie.
<STRONG>After all, It runs whether the Nat's are there or
not.</STRONG> So if we extract ONLY the additional Nationals
related costs only, what are they really? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Beyond the field, maintenance what is the EXTRA cost to
the AMA associated with the running all of the events that constitute a
Nationals. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Then I asked myself what are the costs related to <STRONG>just
running PATTERN</STRONG>. Do they have contest related equipment
already, or do they buy new stuff such as tents etc. just
for us. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- I know that they put out the box poles and provide some
PA equipment, but are extra summer workers hired for just us? and
what is the cost for the four days that we are there.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>======================================================================================================================</DIV>
<DIV>In my business life I have seen numbers used to prove many
a point ,but almost every time the numbers did not hold up to close
examination.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In our case (pattern). In 2005 we raised around $10,400 in
pattern entry fees. ( I say "around" because there are a few late-entry
fee entries that are twice the normal fee and are hard to track). Our
important number is that we received $ $6755 from the AMA after they
took their cut. The AMA's important number is that they receive the
balance which as a round number of was in the region of
$3600. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is that enough to cover what we cost them? The year before the
AMA claimed that they had lost $12,000 running the Nat's. Now it
is a $25,000 loss. The only action that I know of that took
place was to increase the AMA entrance fee portion by $10. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- What is more important is to ask what; </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>a) Difference did the fee increase make, and </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>b) Why did the costs still go up so much.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>c) Was anything done to reduce costs.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The real problem is that what you are being fed as factual money
data is "roll-up-accounting" at its worst. The devil may be in the
details but so is the answer. You cannot solve a fiscal problem if you
don't know which part is failing or broken. </DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV>======================================================================================================================</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Accounting roll-ups are the real emery of all good decision
making. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let me give you a small example of what I mean. I am familiar
with the Pattern Nat's banquet. I read in the K-factor that the banquet
cost was too high and that another venue, [probably the golf club] would
be used again. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The number used was something like $34 a head and we should not
subsidize the meal. This looked similar to the 2005 number that I
managed. On the surface of it looked like good logic. BUT I happen
to know also that a bunch of other costs were dumped into the "banquet
bucket" in 2005. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The true cost of the banquet meal is the vendor charge minus
the money collected for meal tickets. In short,we collected $2,560
from 112.5 people. (This was comprised of adult meals, kids
meals and 10 comp. tickets for people like the Event director
plus wife, AMA Contest director plus wife, other key AMA officials
and the HQ scoring staff plus guest. The tickets were $25 per
head. The NSRCA subsidized the actual meal by $250. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now for the hidden costs! the NSRCA holds and hosts a general
meeting at the Banquet so it eats the costs for the hall ($200 and
microphone/podium stuff etc.) reasonable so far. Then you add any
trophies and awards etc. Then the cost for the NSRCA board meeting the
night before, (we feed them way past midnight) was put in there. And
then the costs for the finals "free" meal and awards ceremony. [Note-
NSRCA trophies we pay for. AMA trophies we do not]. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All of these relatively small items gradually pushed the
"roll-up accounting banquet" number up to nearly $4000. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now you have a number that you can divide, say by 115 contestants
and you get $34. It is a good number that good people can and
will tie their argument to, but it is just plain WRONG data that
give a wrong conclusion. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Back to the shop.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Eric.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial
size=2> </FONT><STRONG>From:</STRONG> </FONT></FONT><A
title=JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net" target=_blank><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>Jerry Stebbins</FONT></A><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
size=3><B>To:</B> </FONT></FONT><A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>Discussion -NSRCA</FONT></A><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
size=3><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 01, 2007 5:26
PM</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
size=3><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Muncie's reason to
exist</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tony,I do know, and as voiced by others around at the time,
that Muncie was defined, justified and implemented as a common
location to hold AMA NATS Events. Whatever else it did, or could
do, was secondary. </DIV>
<DIV>That being the case, why isn't the real question "How do we
expand all the NATS and cover any associated expenses".</DIV>
<DIV>We have heard these same old complaints about the NATS for
many years, and yet the EC seems to let them fester,
rather than solving them.</DIV>
<DIV>I also have heard threats that if "it" don't get fixed then the
NATS will go away. I have news for that position-if AMA takes that
road--they will go away since they could not stand a large
Membership reduction. They could quickly be replaced by a new viable
"service the membership" organization holding all the
NATS! Maybe that is what they want? </DIV>
<DIV>Wonder what the Greater Muncie CoC would have to say about
that?</DIV>
<DIV>The cost deficit I have heard has always been expressed based
upon Membership $. What about the large $s given to AMA every
year by donations/bequests, and what about Event fees? How
about all the revenue taken in from the family members and
contestants on shirts/caps/whatever, and at the Museum? Don't
they all provide additional resources, or are new tasks/jobs
created to absorb them. Maybe the answer is to reduce overall AMA
growth/costs. </DIV>
<DIV>The majority of facilities/support items
(tents,tables,trailers,chairs,etc.) used to support the NATS
are already sunk costs-with typical periodic maintenance
or replacement costs.</DIV>
<DIV>What is it that "doesn't get done" for the time when a
few staff support the NATS, rather than their "normal"
jobs?</DIV>
<DIV>It would be interesting to hear a candid position of each
Member of the EC, to see what they actually think</DIV>
<DIV>the role of AMA at Muncie is.</DIV>
<DIV>It sounds like they may have in mind a totally different
mission for Muncie than was originally defined. </DIV>
<DIV>Looks like that would be a good project for AMA Members from
each AMA District to find out. </DIV>
<DIV>In any case it smells like AMA is moving away
from a "service the Membership" mentality, and towards a "do
more-different/create more" growth business mentality, using
complaints/costs as a justification. </DIV>
<DIV>Jerry</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
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