[NSRCA-discussion] SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?

mark hunt flyintexan at houston.rr.com
Mon Jan 8 15:40:03 AKST 2007 

For what it's worth:

I was out at the field and was asked to call the sportsman for one of my 
club members.  I was very happy to his interest.  The wind was down the 
runway at about 10mph and he is flying an excelleron with an OS91fx on the 
stock muffler.  This setup seemed to have no problem with most of the 
sequence in the wind.  He was able to perform the 2 loops without much of a 
problem.  What I found interesting though was that the vertical line was not 
lacking.  With some momentum at entry, he drew a significant vertical line 
(length of which in not a judging criteria) with a noticable exit radius at 
the top.  Where he did lack power was in downwind turnarounds and in the 
upwind immelman.  The downwind half reverse cuban 8 (2 of them I think) was 
difficult for him and his airplane.  Getting the plane to go up a nice 45 in 
a downwind, then half roll (more lost energy) and somehow continue up the 
line a bit more was just too much to ask.  You can see alot of this in the 
sportsman class....the classic pull right after the half roll...in this case 
the plane wasn't flying at that point anyway.  Also, the Immelman exit (half 
roll) was lacking as well due to the slow speed at the top.  The Immelman 
however, is followed by a 45 downline which is a nice break for the power 
challenged.

It was very encouraging to work with someone starting out like I was not 
long ago (yep...Kaos).


-mark


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Archie Stafford" <rcpattern at stx.rr.com>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 
SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?


> Fred,
>
> I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with most of your comments 
> below.
> I have not met you and therefore want to give you a little bit of 
> background
> on me so you can see I'm not just someone chiming in without any knowledge
> of pattern.  I've been flying pattern seriously for 10 years, the last 4 
> in
> Masters.  I've made the Masters finals at the NATS each of the last 3 
> years.
> Anyway a 1.5:1 thrust to weight ratio is not needed at all.  What is 
> needed
> is the proper setup and understanding of your setup.  What I mean by that 
> is
> you have to understand the limitations of your airframe and engine
> combination and fly accordingly.  I have personally flown next years
> sportsman pattern with a Hobbico Hobbystar 60 with an OS .65LA.  I was 
> able
> to complete the sequence without any problems.  Was it as pretty as it
> would've been with my 1.60DZ powered Mantis, no, but I did get through the
> sequence and if I were flying sportsman would've been competitive (there 
> are
> two guys on this list who watched it and would both agree). What I mean by
> understanding your setup is as follows.  If you are flying a 2 stroke, the
> torque curve is much different.  2 strokes for the most part require a
> little "spool" up time before being loaded on a vertical.  Especially if 
> you
> are not at a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio.  Therefore you need to be on the
> power a little earlier to allow the motor to spool up and carry some more
> momentum into the maneuver. Whereas a 4 stroke you can usually wait a 
> little
> longer to apply power and still get the desired results.  Both work
> extremely well, but just have to be flown a little differently. Electrics
> are no different.  I would try changing props and playing with flying the
> sequence a little faster if you are underpowered.  A lot of people think
> having the latest 2 meter ship is an advantage.  In the lower classes it 
> can
> be a disadvantage especially in high winds.  These new aircraft are 
> designed
> to fly the F sequences, and are usually very tall with tons of rudder
> authority.  A prophecy with a YS 1.40 sport in the nose in my opinion 
> would
> be one heck of an intermediate plane with the new sequences.  In the right
> hands, even Advanced.  A brand new Twister, or whatever is going to 
> require
> a lot more work in a nasty crosswind than most sportsman guys could 
> handle.
> One of the best Sportsman setups I've personally seen and flown is a 
> Kondor
> Models Adrenaline, with an OS 1.20AX in the nose with some good sport
> digital servos.  That entire setup is less than 600 bucks and it did some
> serious damage this year in Sportsman in D4, and D6 when Paul moved south
> with it.  That is a great little setup.  I think the GP Venus II is 
> another,
> and I'm sure the new Focus will be at least as good if not better than 
> both
> of those.  The point is, a 3000 dollar pattern ship, with unlimited 
> vertical
> is not necessary to compete.  Hours at the field, with a well setup 
> airplane
> and good coach are what is necessary.
>
> Arch Stafford
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred Huber
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 8:48 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
> SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>
> The stall turn you can run out of power at the top and still complete it.
> (you NEED to run out of power at the top)
>
> The vertical up line you have to make a sustained straight up line at
> constant speed and then have the "omph" left to make the same raius push 
> to
> get back level as the radius used to pull into the up line.
>
> 1:1 power:weight would do the old Sportsman.  You need 1.5:1 to do that up
> line and have the power to wind compensate.
>
> A Golberg Tiger 60 with a .61 2-stroke in the nose could to the old 
> Sportman
>
> sequence. (with just problems due to wanting to roll with rudder input)
> With a .91 4-stroke.. (which gives a significant improvement in up-lines)
> It would be marginal at best.
>
> My Quest 3D e-powered was fine for the old Sportsman sequence using 13X6.5
> at 800 watts.  For the new sequence I had to prop-up to 14X8, drawing 900
> watts.  (fortunately the motor, battery and ESC are rated for that)  I
> simply COULD NOT do the up line with the 13X6.5.
> I put the E-powered Quest together specificly to fly sportsman, aiming at 
> 2
> rounds per battery charge.  I now can't count on having the power to
> complete the second round. (longer sequence AND more power required to do
> it.)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ken Thompson" <mrandmrst at comcast.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:03 PM
> Subject: Re:
> [NSRCA-discussion]SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>
>
>> Fred,
>>
>> Why is that vertical upline any harder to complete than the old stall
>> turn?
>> They both end at the same elevation...
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
>> SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I STILL think that the new Sportsman sequence is a mistake. Vertical
>>> up-line
>>> requires too much airplane performance and THAT is going to keep some
>>> potential beginners from competing.
>>>
>>> FHH
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Mike Hester" <kerlock at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small
>>> Models...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>>>
>>>
>>>> That is because people are looking fo a magic fix that I am utterly,
>>>> totally, absolutely convinced does not exist.
>>>>
>>>> I am also absolutely utterly convinced that messing with the rules too
>>>> much
>>>> over airframes in ANY class right now will ultimately have the opposite
>>>> effect of what people are trying to accomplish.
>>>>
>>>> You guys know as well as I do that a major part of the draw in pattern
>>>> is
>>>> the planes themselves to a lot of people. Not all, but a substantial
>>>> number.
>>>> In the sportsman class, if a guy has the ambition to secure a 2 meter
>>>> plane,
>>>> history shows (around here anyway) that you're MUCH more likely to see
>>>> him
>>>> next year in intermediate. The guy with the Kaos.....more likely, not.
>>>> It's
>>>> not because of cost, that is an excuse. Remove that excuse, they'll 
>>>> just
>>>> find another. And now you've screwed the guy who WOULD have been around
>>>> next
>>>> year....
>>>>
>>>> So let me get this straight....if you want to fly a 2 meter plane with 
>>>> a
>>>> OS
>>>> or YS160, you would have to fly advanced? Jeez, that's not a good idea.
>>>>
>>>> When I started, my first contest, I knew I was going to do it. I 
>>>> scratch
>>>> built a 2 meter plane and went for it. I wasn't the only one, most
>>>> others
>>>> in
>>>> sportsman also had 2 meter planes. One actually had bought a world team
>>>> member's plane and was flying it....pretty well I might add...and I 
>>>> have
>>>> to
>>>> say that even through masters and many years, that season was some of
>>>> the
>>>> best competition I have ever had. And we're still here. It produced
>>>> myself,
>>>> AC Glenn, Bryan Kennedy, Steve Homenda to name a few. Steve was the 
>>>> only
>>>> one
>>>> who wasn't flying a 2 meter plane, he was flying a 40 sized Arresti and
>>>> whipping everyone's tail with it. Oddly enough, he didn't get deterred
>>>> by
>>>> the big bad evil 2 meters.
>>>>
>>>> There is no magic change to the rules that's going to bring newcomers 
>>>> in
>>>> droves. You get creative, do what you can, and you make the best of 
>>>> what
>>>> you
>>>> get. We're not driving people away in droves like some people seem to
>>>> think.
>>>> If we are, it certainly isn't the rules regarding the size of the 
>>>> planes
>>>> and
>>>> cost. Maybe, just maybe it has more to do with a lot of the negativity?
>>>>
>>>> That's just my opinion, I could be wrong....but I'm pretty sure I'm not
>>>> =)
>>>>
>>>> -M
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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