[NSRCA-discussion] SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?

Sun Jan 7 18:44:53 AKST 2007

Fred,

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with most of your comments below.
I have not met you and therefore want to give you a little bit of background
on me so you can see I'm not just someone chiming in without any knowledge
of pattern.  I've been flying pattern seriously for 10 years, the last 4 in
Masters.  I've made the Masters finals at the NATS each of the last 3 years.
Anyway a 1.5:1 thrust to weight ratio is not needed at all.  What is needed
is the proper setup and understanding of your setup.  What I mean by that is
you have to understand the limitations of your airframe and engine
combination and fly accordingly.  I have personally flown next years
sportsman pattern with a Hobbico Hobbystar 60 with an OS .65LA.  I was able
to complete the sequence without any problems.  Was it as pretty as it
would've been with my 1.60DZ powered Mantis, no, but I did get through the
sequence and if I were flying sportsman would've been competitive (there are
two guys on this list who watched it and would both agree). What I mean by
understanding your setup is as follows.  If you are flying a 2 stroke, the
torque curve is much different.  2 strokes for the most part require a
little "spool" up time before being loaded on a vertical.  Especially if you
are not at a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio.  Therefore you need to be on the
power a little earlier to allow the motor to spool up and carry some more
momentum into the maneuver. Whereas a 4 stroke you can usually wait a little
longer to apply power and still get the desired results.  Both work
extremely well, but just have to be flown a little differently. Electrics
are no different.  I would try changing props and playing with flying the
sequence a little faster if you are underpowered.  A lot of people think
having the latest 2 meter ship is an advantage.  In the lower classes it can
be a disadvantage especially in high winds.  These new aircraft are designed
to fly the F sequences, and are usually very tall with tons of rudder
authority.  A prophecy with a YS 1.40 sport in the nose in my opinion would
be one heck of an intermediate plane with the new sequences.  In the right
hands, even Advanced.  A brand new Twister, or whatever is going to require
a lot more work in a nasty crosswind than most sportsman guys could handle.
One of the best Sportsman setups I've personally seen and flown is a Kondor
Models Adrenaline, with an OS 1.20AX in the nose with some good sport
digital servos.  That entire setup is less than 600 bucks and it did some
serious damage this year in Sportsman in D4, and D6 when Paul moved south
with it.  That is a great little setup.  I think the GP Venus II is another,
and I'm sure the new Focus will be at least as good if not better than both
of those.  The point is, a 3000 dollar pattern ship, with unlimited vertical
is not necessary to compete.  Hours at the field, with a well setup airplane
and good coach are what is necessary.

Arch Stafford

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred Huber
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 8:48 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?

The stall turn you can run out of power at the top and still complete it. 
(you NEED to run out of power at the top)

The vertical up line you have to make a sustained straight up line at 
constant speed and then have the "omph" left to make the same raius push to 
get back level as the radius used to pull into the up line.

1:1 power:weight would do the old Sportsman.  You need 1.5:1 to do that up 
line and have the power to wind compensate.

A Golberg Tiger 60 with a .61 2-stroke in the nose could to the old Sportman

sequence. (with just problems due to wanting to roll with rudder input) 
With a .91 4-stroke.. (which gives a significant improvement in up-lines) 
It would be marginal at best.

My Quest 3D e-powered was fine for the old Sportsman sequence using 13X6.5 
at 800 watts.  For the new sequence I had to prop-up to 14X8, drawing 900 
watts.  (fortunately the motor, battery and ESC are rated for that)  I 
simply COULD NOT do the up line with the 13X6.5.
I put the E-powered Quest together specificly to fly sportsman, aiming at 2 
rounds per battery charge.  I now can't count on having the power to 
complete the second round. (longer sequence AND more power required to do 
it.)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Thompson" <mrandmrst at comcast.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: 
[NSRCA-discussion]SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?

> Fred,
>
> Why is that vertical upline any harder to complete than the old stall 
> turn?
> They both end at the same elevation...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
> SmallModels...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>
>
>>
>> I STILL think that the new Sportsman sequence is a mistake. Vertical
>> up-line
>> requires too much airplane performance and THAT is going to keep some
>> potential beginners from competing.
>>
>> FHH
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Mike Hester" <kerlock at comcast.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small
>> Models...goodforthefutureofthePatternEvent?
>>
>>
>>> That is because people are looking fo a magic fix that I am utterly,
>>> totally, absolutely convinced does not exist.
>>>
>>> I am also absolutely utterly convinced that messing with the rules too
>>> much
>>> over airframes in ANY class right now will ultimately have the opposite
>>> effect of what people are trying to accomplish.
>>>
>>> You guys know as well as I do that a major part of the draw in pattern 
>>> is
>>> the planes themselves to a lot of people. Not all, but a substantial
>>> number.
>>> In the sportsman class, if a guy has the ambition to secure a 2 meter
>>> plane,
>>> history shows (around here anyway) that you're MUCH more likely to see
>>> him
>>> next year in intermediate. The guy with the Kaos.....more likely, not.
>>> It's
>>> not because of cost, that is an excuse. Remove that excuse, they'll just
>>> find another. And now you've screwed the guy who WOULD have been around
>>> next
>>> year....
>>>
>>> So let me get this straight....if you want to fly a 2 meter plane with a
>>> OS
>>> or YS160, you would have to fly advanced? Jeez, that's not a good idea.
>>>
>>> When I started, my first contest, I knew I was going to do it. I scratch
>>> built a 2 meter plane and went for it. I wasn't the only one, most 
>>> others
>>> in
>>> sportsman also had 2 meter planes. One actually had bought a world team
>>> member's plane and was flying it....pretty well I might add...and I have
>>> to
>>> say that even through masters and many years, that season was some of 
>>> the
>>> best competition I have ever had. And we're still here. It produced
>>> myself,
>>> AC Glenn, Bryan Kennedy, Steve Homenda to name a few. Steve was the only
>>> one
>>> who wasn't flying a 2 meter plane, he was flying a 40 sized Arresti and
>>> whipping everyone's tail with it. Oddly enough, he didn't get deterred 
>>> by
>>> the big bad evil 2 meters.
>>>
>>> There is no magic change to the rules that's going to bring newcomers in
>>> droves. You get creative, do what you can, and you make the best of what
>>> you
>>> get. We're not driving people away in droves like some people seem to
>>> think.
>>> If we are, it certainly isn't the rules regarding the size of the planes
>>> and
>>> cost. Maybe, just maybe it has more to do with a lot of the negativity?
>>>
>>> That's just my opinion, I could be wrong....but I'm pretty sure I'm not
>>> =)
>>>
>>> -M
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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