[NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for thefutureofthePattern Event?
Fred Huber
fhhuber at clearwire.net
Thu Jan 4 12:25:16 AKST 2007
To entice begiiners into pattern, the question is... "What do I need to
compete at Sportsman level"... and for Sportsman, the .60 to .90 size planes
are just fine. I've seen a U-Can-Do 3D 60 beat a 2 meter plane... At
Sportsman, I'd expect a 60 size "Ultra Stick" to do very well.
You can explain the difference in aircraft performance requirements with
increasing competiton levels, while standing beside that top end 2-meter
plane with 3KW of brushless power (or a 1.60 2-stroke... or even the
turbine) in the nose, and not look like you're making things up by:::
breaking out a sport model and taking it through the Sportsman sequence to
demonstrate.
A sport model being controlled by a Pattern flyer looks like a different
model than the same plane being flown by an average "sunday flyer". The
stick skills show, no matter what the pilot is flying.
Actually.. if the pilot's stick skills need work... a sport model can look
smoother than the 2-meter Pattern design. My .90 size (e-powered) pattern
design shows me EVERY mistake I make. My sport models hide a lot. I
"twitch" the pattern plane responds NOW. The sport plane seems to "think
about it" for a bit.
**************
I still think the Sportsman sequence needs to be CAREFULLY kept such that a
.60 size "Ugly stick" or equivilent with a .60 2-stroke in the nose can do
all maneuvers easilly. That vertical up-line in the new sequence pushes the
edge of what should be in Sportsman... (the .60 size Ugly Stick needs a .91
4-stroke in the nose with that maneuver in the sequence... The .61 2-stroke
runs out of steam on the way up.)
You want a good Sportsman sequence... have a Sportsman draw it up... not a
Masters or FAI competitor.
Sportsman is to get the beginners to competition used to flying in front of
judges. Sportsman used to be called "Novice"..... and that helped keep the
purpose of the class visible. Its there to help new competitors learn to
handle the stress of flying for score and to build basic skills needed for
higher level competition.... Not to test the vertical performance of the
aircraft.
Sportsman, in my opinion could withstand having a permanantly fixed
sequence. (such as the one that just got superceeded, because I think the
new one demands too much out of the aircraft) When a Sportsman competitor
gets bored flying that same sequence every contest... its probably time to
move up.
FHH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Miller" <edbon85 at charter.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
thefutureofthePattern Event?
>I think the fact there are a slew of 60 to 90 sized pattern arfs readily
> available at a sub $300 price tag will motivate newbies more than the
> cumbersome size issue. If or when a newbie gets hooked, the size issue,
> or
> lack there of, then is an added benefit. Problem is and we've all been
> there is the question "what do I need to compete with". There you stand
> touting all the good 60 to 90 size planes out there while trying to hide
> your guppy 2M plane of the week............
> Ed M.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the
> futureofthePattern Event?
>
>
>> Thanks Jay,
>> That's why I posted to the list. Between the whole lot of us, we can get
>> some coverage.
>> Maybe it begs the issue of how to find newbies in the first place ( silly
>> grin ) but you might start at the regular club meeting/field.
>> Aren't there guys who watch and comment on your Pattern stuff, but don't
>> get into the event, in your local club?
>> Ask them if they think the entry barrier would change for them or someone
>> like them. They may be closer to that prospective newbie than you are.
>> They may come back and say that the practice discipline is why they will
>> never do it,
>> and others may come back and say, "Wow smaller/cheaper planes that fit in
>> my car and my apartmenmt workshop! I'm in!"
>> I doubt you'll get such clear feedback, but you might get something.
>> later,
>> Dean
>>
>>
>> Dean Pappas
>> Sr. Design Engineer
>> Kodeos Communications
>> 111 Corporate Blvd.
>> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
>> (908) 222-7817 phone
>> (908) 222-2392 fax
>> d.pappas at kodeos.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jay
>> Marshall
>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:58 PM
>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future
>> ofthePattern Event?
>>
>>
>> Dean, you bring up a very good point. Most of us are seeped in the 2m
>> venue.
>> We should really be talking to prospective new flyers. How do we do that?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dean
>> Pappas
>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:09 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future of
>> thePattern Event?
>>
>> Hi Anthony,
>> Hi All,
>> Forget the implementational details for now. Stop trying to Engineer it,
>> we
>> are doing Marketting.
>> If it helps to get in the right frame of mind, take a few stiff drinks
>> and
>> bang your head on the workbench about ten times.
>> If we decide that it's worthwhile, then there are a zillion ways to make
>> the
>> transition and to also grandfather existing planes for several years.
>> That's not the issue, at least not for now.
>>
>> Changing the shape of the event: just for "something to do" would be an
>> awful waste of energy and needless turmoil.
>> We all dislike wasted energy, and I hope that we all agree that needless
>> turmoil is to be avoided.
>> I really want to focus on the basic question. Will making Pattern ships
>> smaller lead to increased future participation in the event?
>> If the answer isn't YES, then the grief probably ain't worth it.
>>
>> So far, I am hearing a mixed bag, and a whole lot of talk about the
>> compromises we have all made when buying a vehicle.
>> I am there with you. (stow 'n go Grand caravan ... love it)
>> But the choir is already saved, and you all already fly Pattern.
>> Please go pester the newbies and the folks that you think are potential
>> Pattern newbies.
>> Will this make a difference as to whether they take the plunge?
>> Maybe the answer is that future participation won't be improved.
>>
>> After we figure out whether future participation will or will not be
>> helped,
>> then we can figure out what those of us already in the event would like.
>> That is an entirely separate question.
>>
>> thanks for the help,
>> Dean
>>
>>
>>
>> Dean Pappas
>> Sr. Design Engineer
>> Kodeos Communications
>> 111 Corporate Blvd.
>> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
>> (908) 222-7817 phone
>> (908) 222-2392 fax
>> d.pappas at kodeos.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Anthony
>> Romano
>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:31 AM
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models bonus!?
>>
>>
>> Ok I will try it again. What about a 10 % score bonus for a 1.7m model?
>> 1.5m
>>
>> 20%? Encourage the newbie or the guy on a budget and take away the
>> perceived
>>
>> advantage without causing obsolescence on current equipment.
>> Remember the biplane bonus at the TOC? Wasn't there a size bonus as well
>> waaayyy back?
>>
>> Maybe it needs to be limited to sportsman or intermediate maybe not.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>>From: "Ed Miller" <edbon85 at charter.net>
>>>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
>>>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 08:12:11 -0500
>>>
>>>Yes, that is known as the BPA, Ballistic Pattern Association. So soon
>>>there
>>>will be 3 pattern venues to split the already dwindling pattern base :).
>>>Ed M.
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Earl Haury" <ehaury at houston.rr.com>
>>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 6:40 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
>>>
>>>
>>>Interesting indeed - a local club is considering holding a "ole fashion"
>>>pattern contest this fall. The plan is to fly pre-turnaround pattern. Not
>>>sure exactly what the rules will be - but not SPA, as the intent is to
>>>allow
>>>'70's - '80's airplanes with piped engines & retracts (one member
>>>mentioned
>>>a Brushfire with piped Jett 90).
>>>
>>>I'm very comfortable with pattern as it is - however, there is a gap
>>>between
>>>current pattern and SPA that many seem interested in.
>>>
>>>Earl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Koenig, Tom
>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:16 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
>>>
>>>
>>> Guys-there are many of us that reminisce about the 'simpler' days of
>>> the
>>>60 size models, even down here!
>>>
>>> I mentioned recently to some locals that I may hold a comp similar to
>>>your
>>>SPA stuff. I considered just allowing 60 size models as a max, never mind
>>>all the vintage rules etc.....I was SWAMPED with interest. There were all
>>>sorts of ex pattern pilots ready to show up. I think I'd have had 40 -50
>>>possible entries!!!
>>>
>>> Not trying to stir things up-but it is interesting nonetheless.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ron
>>>Lockhart
>>> Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:31 AM
>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
>>>
>>>
>>> Yea, smaller has a number of advantages.
>>> A reduction in money, time, hassle factor, etc., of models is a
>>>thought
>>>toward increased participation.
>>> (Yea, I know the established pilots, and new pilots, are allowed to
>>>fly
>>>smaller models right now. But we have a
>>> lot of history that shows Dean's comment "Given that everyone will
>>>build or buy up to the maximum size limit" is true.
>>> How does that Dixie thing go?....<G>
>>>
>>> Ron Lockhart
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Dean Pappas
>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:51 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi John,
>>> A year or so ago, I puit together an Excelleron 90 for a review
>>> and
>>>eventual sale to a newbie.
>>> Boy! Was it nice to drop a plane into the minivan in one piece!
>>> It was almost as good as when a Phoenix 8 would fit into the back
>>> of
>>
>>>a
>>>hatchback Camaro in one piece.
>>>
>>> Given that everyone will build or buy up to the maximum size
>>> limit,
>>> is there a good enough reason to push on the rules bodies to
>>>legislate
>>>Pattern plane sizes back down?
>>> How about 1.6 or 1.7 meters square?
>>> Will this affect cost and complexity enough to have a beneficial
>>>effect on participation?
>>> Or am I just whistling Dixie?
>>>
>>> later,
>>> Dean
>>> Dean Pappas
>>> Sr. Design Engineer
>>> Kodeos Communications
>>> 111 Corporate Blvd.
>>> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
>>> (908) 222-7817 phone
>>> (908) 222-2392 fax
>>> d.pappas at kodeos.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John
>>>Ferrell
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:07 PM
>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
>>>
>>>
>>> There seems to be a growing trend toward smaller airplanes among
>>> a
>>>lot of folks. I sure am enjoying the 90 size Boxer I bought from Ed
>>>Miller
>>>last summer. Less hassle to transport, assemble and fly. That means I can
>>>fly more!
>>>
>>> John Ferrell W8CCW
>>> "My Competition is not my enemy"
>>> http://DixieNC.US
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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