[NSRCA-discussion] Musicians (off topic)

Thu Dec 13 12:04:42 AKST 2007

You guys are starting to scare me!!

One of the reasons I have been very thin on the flying of late is
because I have 'returned' to custom building Basses....I have a constant
stream of 'musicians' in and out of my workshop on a daily basis ( after
I finish my 'real' job!)

Now I'm finding out that more and more of 'us' pattern nerds are either
still practicing musos or ex wanna be rockstars!

Yes I do have some genuine Rockstar customers...I will be teaching a few
to fly soon too!  

What a bunch of guys you all are!!!!

Tom
________________________________

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Gray E
Fowler
Sent: Friday, 14 December 2007 4:47 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re: Off topic

Wayne 

Since you live near me you do not count....when you visit your sister
stop by and I will tell you..... 

Gray Fowler
Senior Principal Chemical Engineer
Radomes and Specialty Apertures
Technical Staff Composites Engineering
Raytheon 

"wgalligan" <wgalligan at att.net> 
Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 

12/13/2007 11:28 AM 
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Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re:  Off topic

NICE Dwayne.... 

Yes Gray lets hear it for the tube amp vs P/A amp.   I wanna know. 

WG 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dwayne Brown <mailto:dwaynenancy at suddenlink.net>  
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 11:51 AM 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re: Off topic 

I'm gonna listen to my ES335 thru my Princeton amp I bought in 1964 then
maybe I'll plug into my Fender Dual Reverb with my PRS or my Les Paul Jr
I bought in 1957.  Tone!!!  Dwayne 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of wgalligan
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:17 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re: Off topic 

Once again... Gray bends the envelope on his vast infinite wealth of
useful knowledge. 

Thanks for that audio bit of brain food.... now back to my $99.00 12
Gauge practice amp.  (Wishing that I had a full blown tube amp  from the
70's) 

WG... 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Gray E Fowler <mailto:gfowler at raytheon.com>  
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:18 AM 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re: Off topic 

I have tried to stay out of this as it could become old guy vs young
guy, but then again I am no longer young..... 

As an ex muscian I have recorded about 25 original songs and the
interesting thing is that my recording time frame spans the cross over
of analog to digital, that is 1985 to about 1995. 

Led Zeps "Whole Lotta Love" is not record groove bleed over, but is
called tape print through. That's where a freshly recorded magnetic
impression transfers through the back side of the tape onto a place it
does not belong-one reel revolution. To alleviate this tapes are to be
stored "tails out" which the recording engineer obviously forgot to
do...in 1969. So that has to be the coolest recording accident of all
time. 

I have known many home listening "audiophiles" in my life, some I would
call friends. I was always amazed at the money that they spent on their
home systems that was at times more than what it would cost to put in a
"studio" system. As a professional musician and a professional sound
man, the entire idea of recording in a studio was to make your guitar or
the drums sound like YOUR guitar, or your drums. When I stood in front
of my Marshall tube amp cranked up to 11, I wanted that sound on my
final product-be it a record or digital recording. (Pehaps I will
discuss guitar tube amps and the reason for their existence at a later
date). I cannot begin to explain how difficult that task actually is. I
will say it is much easier now days. 

Analog recoding studios really sounded good. 2" wide 24 track tape
spinning at 30 inches per second. That is what it took to keep the tape
noise level low and to get the most accurate reproduction AND each
machine and tape brand had to be calibrated before each recording
session to ensure accuracy. Remember, what you are listening to is what
the muscian wants you to hear, so audiophiles and listeners do not even
get a vote yet on sound quality. 
The 2" tape 24 track  "Master"changed my guitar sound a bit. Then that
was mixed down to stereo 1/2 track 1/4" tape format called "Half Track
Master". That change my guitar sound a bit more, but still okay. The
Half Track Master then is sent to a pressing plant to make the actual
vinyl record. First you had to find a pay an expert "Master-er" to get
to vinyl. This guy held you and your recording by the Nards. Why?
Because analog vinyl technolgy was so screwed up. The Half track master
that sounded great in the recording studio had to be Re-equalized by
this record master-er to compensate for his equipment and how he knew it
would change your recording-that you just spent $5000 on. It also had to
be compressed (musically not like MP3-more later) so it would not
violate groove and needle physical capabilities. If the Master-man
sucked or did not care, so did your record. If you were a big time rock
star (I was not), then you could hire Bob Ludwig, and he would make 5-6
wax pressings so the musician could hear what he changed and choose what
they liked best. Me I had to take what I could get. In reality very few
muscians ever approved of their vinyl recordings because they sounded so
different from what they put down in the studio. 
Yet old audiophiles with their Harmonically distorted tube amps and
super crappy damping factors, needles that once again change the sound
and wear the grooves down, changing the sound, and worst of all
"colored" speakers tailored so any fool got a decent balance of bass and
highs, claim superiority-calling this "warmth". 

Digital Mixers, with digital recording and digital media by far produce
the truest reproduction of what the muscian intended. What I discovered
when I recorded digital was that what used to sound "full-warm" was in
fact much less accurate. The "full-warm" sound that was missing was
harmonic crap that filled up the spaces in the mix. What you could then
do with digital is add more musical parts to fill the gaps and you could
hear all  the detail. Listen to Led Zep records, then listen to a Led
Zep CD which was taken straight from the Half Track stereo master. One
thing that you will notice right away on CD is how much reverb is
present on the CD that you cannot hear on a vinyl record. I used to
think as I bought CDS that the CD has reverb added on top of the
original recording. Not so, it is just that it is 2X louder because the
vinyl cannot reproduce such a subtle sound. 

Digital compression like MP3 .....is DATA compression that is
uncompressed before it becomes ear capable analog. Records "Squashed"
compressed music volume for needle physical reasons, Radio uses
"infinite" volume compression-to appear louder than other stations and
to keep from violating broadcast bandwidth-even worse....but hey, my
brother thinks radio sounds great...he must be an audiophile..... 

Also...On Monday I am going back to the recording studio..first time in
12 years. I am making the studio pull out and dust off their antique 1/2
track analog machine (an the studio had to calibrate it-as usual). I
have about 10-11 songs that were mastered a on 1/2 track tape and guess
what..I and going to burn some digital copies. My first album was so
F-up by the vinyl record  that I look forward to hearing what I actually
recorded in 1985...... 

Merry Christmas Pattern dudes........ 

Gray Fowler
Senior Principal Chemical Engineer
Radomes and Specialty Apertures
Technical Staff Composites Engineering
Raytheon 

Bob Richards <bob at toprudder.com> 
Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 

12/12/2007 08:41 PM 

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IMHO, although the "warmth" of a tube amp is desireable to most people,
it is, in fact, a type of distortion. 

I have a collection of vinyl, but prefer to use CDs. Kinda hard to keep
the needle from skipping while driving to work. :-) 

Remember the one Led Zepplin song where the adjacent grooves "bled" over
when the album was pressed? Never would have happened with digital. ;-) 

Bob R. 

twtaylor <twtaylor at ftc-i.net> wrote: 
You've obviously never heard a good system then Matt.  :-) 

Vinyl is still MUCH better than any CD. Also one must have tubes for the
warmth that transistors can never match. 
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