[NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?

Thu Aug 30 03:56:36 AKDT 2007

Hi Lance,

I did not know that.  I have really thought about this issue here are
some of my underlying points:

1.  The flight takes place in a public forum - anyone can watch

2.  The pilot is not hidden from view - anyone can see who is flying

3.  The judges are not hidden from view - anyone can see who is judging

4.  The final results of the work effort of the judges and pilot effort
are posted - anyone can see the final scores

5.  There are two judges or more per single flight - thus there is 100%
more judging work taking place than piloting (at minimum)

What is missing is "how" the final scores were determined.  Because this
one most important ingredient is missing, it causes guessing and
interpretation of the raw scores, and creates a lot of side discussions
on who was scored what to get to that position.  Posting the raw scores
would facilitate "openness" and create a positive atmosphere surrounding
"scoring" of the contest.  If everything else about the flying and
judging is public, why not make the raw scores public?  It is the
competitors right to know how his group was scored (in my view).....
besides, it would accomplish everything I noted below.

The conversations about scoring are already taking place.  Move them in
to the public view just like everything else regarding the
flying/judging.

Thanks,

Jim W.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Lance Van
Nostrand
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:47 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?

Jim, 

did you know that the fai draft for next year REQUIRES that FAI raw
scores be posted where the public can view them?

--Lance

	----- Original Message ----- 

	From: Lance Van Nostrand <mailto:patterndude at tx.rr.com>  

	To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

	Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM

	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?

	I'm willing to try things that would make pattern more spectator
friendly.  I think the reason the lone spectator talking during a flight
has such an effect is because its a lone person and talking loud enough
that judges can hear is rare.  If it became common place we would soon
tune it out and spectators would be better able to follow the contest.

	Your points are excellent.  In my area we don't require judges
to initial their scoresheets.  I don'tunderstand this and I always
initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand next to my
scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why they got a certain score.  The
occasions that pilots have approached me afterwards were supportive and
spiritbuilding.

	--Lance

		----- Original Message ----- 

		From: Woodward, Jim <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>

		To: NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

		Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08 PM

		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?

		I heard a story from this years nats where one of the
Advanced competitors that was in contention flew a less-than-perfect
maneuver, and another pilot who was also in contention (and watching)
yelled out an inappropriate remark.  I think that audience input or
influence is something we should steer away from for precision
aerobatics.  We certainly do not need it to be quiet like for golf, but
direct statements meant to be heard by the judges are not good.

		Although slightly off topic - what I do think we should
do is post all raw scores every flight for every pilot (I think this is
done for the WC).  I think this would provide the following
opportunities:

		1.	The availability of the raw scores would in
itself represent and INCREDIBLE judges training tool.  Seasoned and new
competitor alike could watch flights together, make comments and
discuss, then go back later and see if what they thought they saw was in
line with the scores for that flight.  There is all kinds of opportunity
here to facilitate judging training (.. ideas welcome). 
		2.	Posting of raw scores would allow "judges" to
after-the-fact see how they performed compared to their judging
partners.  There is all kinds of good value that could come from this.
Whether noted privately or discussed between each other, it is good from
time to time to check yourself. 
		3.	Posting of raw scores would help keep the honest
man honest.  By posting raw scores, I think there would be a reduction
of bias any way you cut it:  Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, "teams",
regionality, or other bias' would be removed/reduced if the person knew
ahead of time that the judges scores would be posted. 
		4.	And most importantly, increased "transparency"
in the system helps the seasoned and new comer alike understand the
process of the contest, scoring, and "how" the 1000, 900, or 800's came
to be.  I believe that no matter whom you are, you want to leave a
contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a fair hand.
Transparency is the key to this.  
		5.	OK - last one - it takes "scoring" which is a
topic of much discussion during and after a pattern contest in case you
haven't heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and brings to the open
this topic which everyone is already discussing.  This would do a lot to
remove ammunition from the conspiracy theorist and such whom all of our
districts have.  Transparency is good :-) 

		I write none of this from the sour-grapes perspective.
I love this stuff.  I think the potential benefits from posting the raws
would out weight the potential bad, provide more transparency for the
competitor and also provide judges training.

		Thanks,

		Jim W.

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________________________________

		From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of JShulman
		Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49 PM
		To: NSRCA Mailing List
		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?

		Probably the best reason not to have it...lol. It's bad
enough when we screw-up... I mean when a pilot screws-up and you hear
all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the crowd. Now just imagine the
uproar when someone gets judged for a maneuver that they are doing all
wrong! Total Chaos!

		Regards,
		Jason
		www.jasonshulman.com
		www.shulmanaviation.com
		www.composite-arf.com 

			On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz

			can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and
aahhhs" from the spectators.  :)

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