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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Lance,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I did not know that. I have really
thought about this issue here are some of my underlying points:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. The flight takes place in a
public forum – anyone can watch<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. The pilot is not hidden from view
– anyone can see who is flying<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3. The judges are not hidden from
view – anyone can see who is judging<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>4. The final results of the work
effort of the judges and pilot effort are posted – anyone can see the
final scores<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>5. There are two judges or more per
single flight – thus there is 100% more judging work taking place than
piloting (at minimum)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What is missing is “how” the
final scores were determined. Because this one most important ingredient is
missing, it causes guessing and interpretation of the raw scores, and creates a
lot of side discussions on who was scored what to get to that position.
Posting the raw scores would facilitate “openness” and create a
positive atmosphere surrounding “scoring” of the contest. If
everything else about the flying and judging is public, why not make the raw
scores public? It is the competitors right to know how his group was
scored (in my view)….. besides, it would accomplish everything I noted
below.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The conversations about scoring are
already taking place. Move them in to the public view just like
everything else regarding the flying/judging.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> W.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Lance Van Nostrand<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 29, 2007
10:47 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Are we behind the times?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>, </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>did you know that the fai draft for next year REQUIRES that
FAI raw scores be posted where the public can view them?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>--Lance</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com" title="patterndude@tx.rr.com">Lance Van Nostrand</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, August 27,
2007 10:17 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I'm willing to try things that would make pattern more
spectator friendly. I think the reason the lone spectator talking during
a flight has such an effect is because its a lone person and talking loud
enough that judges can hear is rare. If it became common place we would
soon tune it out and spectators would be better able to follow the contest.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Your points are excellent. In my area we don't require
judges to initial their scoresheets. I don'tunderstand this and I always
initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand next to my scores
for pilots that enjoy knowing why they got a certain score. The occasions
that pilots have approached me afterwards were supportive and spiritbuilding.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>--Lance</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com" title="jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward,
Jim</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, August 27,
2007 1:08 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I heard a story from this years nats where
one of the Advanced competitors that was in contention flew a less-than-perfect
maneuver, and another pilot who was also in contention (and watching) yelled
out an inappropriate remark. I think that audience input or influence is
something we should steer away from for precision aerobatics. We
certainly do not need it to be quiet like for golf, but direct statements meant
to be heard by the judges are not good.<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P></O:P>Although slightly off topic
– what I do think we should do is post all raw scores every flight for
every pilot (I think this is done for the WC). I think this would provide
the following opportunities:<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The
availability of the raw scores would in itself represent and INCREDIBLE
judges training tool. Seasoned and new competitor alike could watch
flights together, make comments and discuss, then go back later and see if
what they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that
flight. There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging
training (.. ideas welcome).<O:P></O:P></span></font> <o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Posting
of raw scores would allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how
they performed compared to their judging partners. There is all
kinds of good value that could come from this. Whether noted
privately or discussed between each other, it is good from time to time to
check yourself.<O:P></O:P></span></font> <o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Posting
of raw scores would help keep the honest man honest. By posting raw
scores, I think there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut
it: Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, “teams”, regionality,
or other bias’ would be removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of
time that the judges scores would be posted.<O:P></O:P></span></font> <o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>And
most importantly, increased “transparency” in the system helps
the seasoned and new comer alike understand the process of the contest,
scoring, and “how” the 1000, 900, or 800’s came to
be. I believe that no matter whom you are, you want to leave a
contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a fair hand.
Transparency is the key to this. <O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>OK
– last one – it takes “scoring” which is a topic
of much discussion during and after a pattern contest in case you
haven’t heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and brings to the
open this topic which everyone is already discussing. This would do
a lot to remove ammunition from the conspiracy theorist and such whom all
of our districts have. Transparency is good </span></font><font
size=2 face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<O:P></O:P>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P></O:P>I write none of this from the
sour-grapes perspective. I love this stuff. I think the potential
benefits from posting the raws would out weight the potential bad, provide more
transparency for the competitor and also provide judges training.<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P></O:P>Thanks,<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Jim</span></font></st1:PersonName></ST1:PERSONNAME><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> W.<O:P></O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:</span></font><font
size=2 color=black><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1>
</span></font></div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>JShulman<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</ST1:PERSONNAME></st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Are we behind the times?</span></font><O:P></O:P><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><O:P></O:P>Probably the best reason not to
have it...lol. It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when a pilot
screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the crowd. Now just
imagine the uproar when someone gets judged for a maneuver that they are doing
all wrong! Total Chaos!</span></font><O:P></O:P><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'><O:P></O:P>Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
www.jasonshulman.com<br>
www.shulmanaviation.com<br>
www.composite-arf.com</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'>
<o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></font></b><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'>Derek Koopowitz</span></font></st1:PersonName></ST1:PERSONNAME><O:P></O:P><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>can you just imagine all the "oohhhss
and aahhhs" from the spectators. :)<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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