[NSRCA-discussion] Spectators vs Scribes

Wed Aug 29 02:10:46 AKDT 2007

This year Bob Noll changed the "scribes" to "judges assistant". For each
flight line we had and assistant calling the maneuvers for the judges.
This gives similar exposure to the newcomers and helps the judges
remembe3r all the elements of a given maneuver and sequence. It seemed to
work really well.

Terry T.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:15:07 -0400 Mark Atwood <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
writes:
One of the things that we’ve successfully done away with is the need for
scribes...  And in doing so, we’ve lost some “forced” exposure and
education at the local club level.   When we used to run the contest here
in Cleveland, (and most that were run around the district), there was
always a big begging session at the local club meeting to get volunteers
to be scribes for EVERY class for EVERY round.  We needed quite a few
people to fill the chairs for the entire weekend.  It took some arm
twisting, but usually you could drum up enough people.

Those people invariably asked questions, learned a little more about
pattern, OFTEN had a small cursory interest which cause them to volunteer
in the first place, and the exposure to the contest, and sitting next to
the other competitors and learning the ropes, often tipped them over the
edge to trying it.  There was the frequent arm twisting of “Hey...if
you’re going to come out and scribe, why not bring a plane and try your
hand at Novice??  I’ll call you through it...”    That usually netted
3-4, if not 8-10 locals to participate...and with a little luck...the bug
would catch one of them.

We no longer have that need to beg people to scribe.  I’m not saying we
should go back to that...just saying it’s one more thing that’s had a
negative impact on “recruiting”.

-Mark

On 8/28/07 9:00 AM, "Jerry Stebbins" <JAStebbins at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some other reason than the
"Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most "spectators" are other
contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they are working, and
if they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway. Those are they
ones we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!. 
Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be brought back by
developing and forming a set of touring callers--how about calling the
Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be interested. THAT would
probably increase our "Spectator" base. :) :)  
Wonder what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone willing to
fess-up?
Jerry

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  John  Pavlick <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00  AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't  behind the times.

Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators  at a Pattern contest?
Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends  count?

John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  John  Gayer <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12  AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We  aren't behind the times.

Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots  with
airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on  the
patterns and pattern in general.

Not having been to an IMAC  contest in years, are they doing better in
providing information to  spectators?  Are they getting large crowds for
the unknowns and  freestyles?
The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I  recall, with
raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.
Must be  why they had such large crowds :-)  
John

Mark Atwood wrote:  

To take that a step further...when was the last  time you saw them
televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is  basically what
we fly...the EXACT same routine.  They’ve dropped the  “figures” portion
of the competition completely.  

But I still  think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I
agree it is likely  to create problems.

-M

On 8/27/07 11:30 PM,  "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
<mailto:jshulman at cfl.rr.com>   wrote:

Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring?  Lets face
it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that  can be
done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown  flight
after flight. 

As for the scoring real-time... the only  one's that it would matter to
would be the one's participating in the  contest. Not necessarily just
the one's in the class, but the one's that  stay the extra day to watch.
Until we throw in some sort of freestyle or  combat, it's just pattern.
Who would watch figure skating without music?  
Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com> 
www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com> 
www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com>   

-----Original Message-----
From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org  
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D> On  Behalf Of Lance
Van  Nostrand
Sent: Monday, August  27, 2007 10:17 PM
To: NSRCA  Mailing  List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the   times?

I'm  willing to try things that would make pattern  more spectator 
friendly.  I think the reason the lone spectator talking   during a
flight has such an effect is because its a lone person  and  talking loud
enough that judges can hear is rare.  If  it became common  place we
would soon tune it out and spectators  would be better able to follow 
the contest.

Your points are excellent.  In my area we  don't  require judges to
initial their scoresheets.  I don'tunderstand   this and I always initial
mine, but I also sometimes put  downgrade shorthand  next to my scores
for pilots that enjoy  knowing why they got a certain  score.  The
occasions that  pilots have approached me afterwards were  supportive and
 spiritbuilding.

--Lance

----- Original Message -----  

From:  Woodward, Jim <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>   

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>   

Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08   PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we   behind the  times?

I heard a story  from this  years nats where one of the Advanced
competitors that was in   contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver,
and another  pilot who was also  in contention (and watching) yelled out
an  inappropriate remark.  I  think that audience input or  influence is
something we should steer away  from for precision  aerobatics.  We
certainly do not need it to be quiet  like  for golf, but direct
statements meant to be heard by the judges are  not  good.

Although  slightly  off topic – what I do think we should do is post all 
raw scores every flight  for every pilot (I think this is done  for the
WC).  I think this would  provide the following  opportunities:

The  availability of the raw  scores would in itself represent and 
INCREDIBLE judges training  tool.  Seasoned and new  competitor alike
could watch flights  together, make comments  and discuss, then go back
later and see if what  they thought  they saw was in line with the scores
for that flight.    There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate 
judging training (..  ideas  welcome).      
Posting  of raw scores would  allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how 
they performed compared to their  judging partners.   There is all kinds
of good value that could come  from  this.  Whether noted privately or
discussed between each  other,  it is good from time to time to check 
yourself.      
Posting  of raw scores would  help keep the honest man honest.   By
posting raw scores, I think  there would be a  reduction of bias any way
you cut it:   Santa-Clausing,  Low-balling, “teams”, regionality, or
other bias’ would be   removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time
that the  judges scores  would be posted.     
And most  importantly,  increased “transparency” in the system helps  the
seasoned and new comer  alike understand the process of  the contest,
scoring, and “how” the 1000,  900, or 800’s came  to be.  I believe that
no matter whom you are, you  want  to leave a contest and feel like you
(& everyone) was dealt a   fair hand.  Transparency is the key to this.  

OK – last  one – it takes  “scoring” which is a topic of much discussion 
during and after a pattern  contest in case you haven’t  heard, away from
a shadowy discussion, and  brings to the  open this topic which everyone
is already discussing.    This would do a lot to remove ammunition from
the  conspiracy theorist and  such whom all of our districts have.  
Transparency is good  J   

I write  none of  this from the sour-grapes perspective.  I love  this
stuff.  I  think the potential benefits from posting  the raws would out
weight the  potential bad, provide more  transparency for the competitor
and also provide  judges  training.

Thanks,

Jim   W.

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From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org  
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>   On Behalf Of
JShulman
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007  1:49  PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject:  Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the  times?

Probably the best  reason not to have it...lol.  It's bad enough when we
screw-up... I mean when  a pilot  screws-up and you hear all the
OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the   crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when
someone gets judged  for a maneuver  that they are doing all wrong! Total
  Chaos!

Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com> 
www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com> 
www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com>   

On Behalf  Of  Derek  Koopowitz

can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and  aahhhs"  from the spectators. 
  :)

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