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<DIV>This year Bob Noll changed the "scribes" to "judges assistant". For each
flight line we had and assistant calling the maneuvers for the judges. This
gives similar exposure to the newcomers and helps the judges remembe3r all the
elements of a given maneuver and sequence. It seemed to work really well.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Terry T.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:15:07 -0400 Mark Atwood <<A
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</A>>
writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">One
of the things that we’ve successfully done away with is the need for
scribes... And in doing so, we’ve lost some “forced” exposure and
education at the local club level. When we used to run the contest
here in Cleveland, (and most that were run around the district), there was
always a big begging session at the local club meeting to get volunteers to be
scribes for EVERY class for EVERY round. We needed quite a few people to
fill the chairs for the entire weekend. It took some arm twisting, but
usually you could drum up enough people.<BR><BR>Those people invariably asked
questions, learned a little more about pattern, OFTEN had a small cursory
interest which cause them to volunteer in the first place, and the exposure to
the contest, and sitting next to the other competitors and learning the ropes,
often tipped them over the edge to trying it. There was the frequent arm
twisting of “Hey...if you’re going to come out and scribe, why not bring a
plane and try your hand at Novice?? I’ll call you through it...”
That usually netted 3-4, if not 8-10 locals to
participate...and with a little luck...the bug would catch one of
them.<BR><BR>We no longer have that need to beg people to scribe. I’m
not saying we should go back to that...just saying it’s one more thing that’s
had a negative impact on “recruiting”.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 8/28/07 9:00
AM, "Jerry Stebbins" <JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT face=Arial>Seems like we are
flogging the dead horse for some other reason than the "Spectators". TOC
comparisons are a reach. Most "spectators" are other contestants/helpers.
Few wannabes come out unless they are working, and if they have the pattern
itch they would be there anyway. Those are they ones we can talk
to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!. <BR>Maybe the old days of
short shorts callers could be brought back by developing and forming a set
of touring callers--how about calling the Dallas Cheerleaders and see if
they would be interested. THAT would probably increase our "Spectator" base.
:) :) <BR>Wonder what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone
willing to fess-up?<BR>Jerry<BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> John Pavlick <A
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com"><mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00
AM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't
behind the times.<BR> <BR><BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at a
Pattern contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends
count?<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>John Pavlick<BR><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> John Gayer <A
href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"><mailto:jgghome@comcast.net></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12
AM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We
aren't behind the times.<BR> <BR><BR>Having a large
scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots with airplanes) and
raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on the patterns
and pattern in general.<BR><BR>Not having been to an IMAC contest
in years, are they doing better in providing information to
spectators? Are they getting large crowds for the unknowns
and freestyles?<BR>The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept
uptodate, as I recall, with raw scores and handed out the patterns
being flown.<BR>Must be why they had such large crowds :-)
<BR>John<BR><BR>Mark Atwood wrote: <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">To take that a step further...when
was the last time you saw them televise the Figure Skating
compulsory rounds...which is basically what we fly...the EXACT
same routine. They’ve dropped the “figures” portion of the
competition completely. <BR><BR>But I still think it would
be entertaining to see scores...though I agree it is likely to
create problems.<BR><BR>-M<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 8/27/07 11:30 PM,
"JShulman" <jshulman@cfl.rr.com> <A
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com></A>
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really
boring? Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying,
there isn't much that can be done to spice it up. It's still
the same sequences being flown flight after flight. <BR><BR>As
for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it would
matter to would be the one's participating in the contest. Not
necessarily just the one's in the class, but the one's that
stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of
freestyle or combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure
skating without music? <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com
<A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com"><http://www.jasonshulman.com></A>
<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com <A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><http://www.shulmanaviation.com></A>
<BR>www.composite-arf.com <A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><http://www.composite-arf.com></A>
<BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D></A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Lance Van Nostrand<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Are we behind the times?<BR><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial>I'm
willing to try things that would make pattern more
spectator friendly. I think the reason the lone
spectator talking during a flight has such an effect
is because its a lone person and talking loud enough
that judges can hear is rare. If it became common
place we would soon tune it out and spectators would
be better able to follow the contest.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>Your points are excellent. In my area we
don't require judges to initial their scoresheets.
I don'tunderstand this and I always initial
mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand
next to my scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why
they got a certain score. The occasions that
pilots have approached me afterwards were supportive
and spiritbuilding.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>--Lance<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message
----- <BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Woodward, Jim <A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com"><mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007
1:08 PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the
times?<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I heard a story from
this years nats where one of the Advanced competitors that
was in contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver,
and another pilot who was also in contention (and
watching) yelled out an inappropriate remark. I
think that audience input or influence is something
we should steer away from for precision aerobatics.
We certainly do not need it to be quiet like
for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the
judges are not good.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Although slightly off topic
– what I do think we should do is post all raw scores
every flight for every pilot (I think this is done
for the WC). I think this would provide the
following opportunities:<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT>
<OL>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">The
availability of the raw scores would in itself
represent and INCREDIBLE judges training tool.
Seasoned and new competitor alike could watch
flights together, make comments and discuss, then
go back later and see if what they thought they
saw was in line with the scores for that flight.
There is all kinds of opportunity here to
facilitate judging training (.. ideas
welcome).</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Posting of raw scores would
allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how they
performed compared to their judging partners.
There is all kinds of good value that could come
from this. Whether noted privately or
discussed between each other, it is good from time
to time to check yourself.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Posting of raw scores would
help keep the honest man honest. By posting
raw scores, I think there would be a reduction of
bias any way you cut it: Santa-Clausing,
Low-balling, “teams”, regionality, or other bias’ would
be removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of
time that the judges scores would be
posted.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">And
most importantly, increased “transparency” in the
system helps the seasoned and new comer alike
understand the process of the contest, scoring, and
“how” the 1000, 900, or 800’s came to be. I
believe that no matter whom you are, you want to
leave a contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a
fair hand. Transparency is the key to this.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> </SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">OK –
last one – it takes “scoring” which is a topic of
much discussion during and after a pattern contest
in case you haven’t heard, away from a shadowy
discussion, and brings to the open this topic
which everyone is already discussing. This
would do a lot to remove ammunition from the conspiracy
theorist and such whom all of our districts have.
Transparency is good
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">J
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></LI></OL><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I write
none of this from the sour-grapes perspective.
I love this stuff. I think the potential
benefits from posting the raws would out weight the
potential bad, provide more transparency for the
competitor and also provide judges
training.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Jim
W.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT face=Arial>CONFIDENTIALITY
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</SPAN></FONT>
<P align=center><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> </SPAN></FONT>
<P><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D></A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>JShulman<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday,
August 27, 2007 1:49 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we
behind the times?<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR> <BR><BR><FONT
color=#0000ff>Probably the best reason not to have
it...lol. It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when
a pilot screws-up and you hear all the
OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the crowd. Now just
imagine the uproar when someone gets judged for a maneuver
that they are doing all wrong! Total
Chaos!<BR></FONT><BR> <BR><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=4><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com
<A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com"><http://www.jasonshulman.com></A>
<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com <A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><http://www.shulmanaviation.com></A>
<BR>www.composite-arf.com <A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><http://www.composite-arf.com></A>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=5><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P align=center><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>On Behalf Of </B>Derek
Koopowitz<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><FONT face="Times New Roman">can you just
imagine all the "oohhhss and aahhhs" from the spectators.
:)<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
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