[NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

ronlock at comcast.net ronlock at comcast.net
Tue Aug 28 12:45:10 AKDT 2007


I remember Kathy, but Norm?   <VBG>
Ron Lockhart

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Scott Anderson" <scott at rcfoamy.com> 

> Yep I remember those days of Norm with his wife Kathy calling, in D1.. He 
> could have crashed and still got points..lol 
> 
> Scott 529 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: 
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:16 PM 
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times. 
> 
> 
> >A cheerleader can call for me anytime. 
> > 
> > Randy 
> > -------------- Original message ---------------------- 
> > From: "J N Hiller" 
> >> Great, professional callers too. 
> >> Jim Hiller 
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message----- 
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jerry 
> >> Stebbins 
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:00 AM 
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List 
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times. 
> >> 
> >> Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some other reason than the 
> >> "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most "spectators" are other 
> >> contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they are working, and 
> >> if 
> >> they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway. Those are they 
> >> ones 
> >> we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!. 
> >> Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be brought back by 
> >> developing and forming a set of touring callers--how about calling the 
> >> Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be interested. THAT would 
> >> probably 
> >> increase our "Spectator" base. :) :) 
> >> Wonder what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone willing to 
> >> fess-up? 
> >> Jerry 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: John Pavlick 
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List 
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 AM 
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times. 
> >> 
> >> Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at a Pattern contest? 
> >> Where 
> >> are they? Do wives and girlfriends count? 
> >> 
> >> John Pavlick 
> >> http://www.idseng.com 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: John Gayer 
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List 
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12 AM 
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times. 
> >> 
> >> Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots with 
> >> airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on the 
> >> patterns and pattern in general. 
> >> 
> >> Not having been to an IMAC contest in years, are they doing better in 
> >> providing information to spectators? Are they getting large crowds for 
> >> the 
> >> unknowns and freestyles? 
> >> The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I recall, with 
> >> raw 
> >> scores and handed out the patterns being flown. 
> >> Must be why they had such large crowds :-) 
> >> John 
> >> 
> >> Mark Atwood wrote: 
> >> To take that a step further...when was the last time you saw them 
> >> televise 
> >> the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is basically what we 
> >> fly...the 
> >> EXACT same routine. They've dropped the "figures" portion of the 
> >> competition completely. 
> >> 
> >> But I still think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree 
> >> it 
> >> is likely to create problems. 
> >> 
> >> -M 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, "JShulman" 
> >> wrote: 
> >> Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring? Lets face it, 
> >> if 
> >> you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that can be done to 
> >> spice 
> >> it up. It's still the same sequences being flown flight after flight. 
> >> 
> >> As for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it would matter to 
> >> would 
> >> be the one's participating in the contest. Not necessarily just the one's 
> >> in 
> >> the class, but the one's that stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw 
> >> in 
> >> some sort of freestyle or combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch 
> >> figure 
> >> skating without music? 
> >> Regards, 
> >> Jason 
> >> www.jasonshulman.com 
> >> www.shulmanaviation.com 
> >> www.composite-arf.com 
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message----- 
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
> >> [ 
> >> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] 
> >> On Behalf Of Lance 
> >> Van 
> >> Nostrand 
> >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM 
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List 
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times? 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I'm willing to try things that would make pattern more spectator 
> >> friendly. 
> >> I think the reason the lone spectator talking during a flight has such 
> >> an 
> >> effect is because its a lone person and talking loud enough that judges 
> >> can 
> >> hear is rare. If it became common place we would soon tune it out and 
> >> spectators would be better able to follow the contest. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Your points are excellent. In my area we don't require judges to 
> >> initial 
> >> their scoresheets. I don'tunderstand this and I always initial mine, 
> >> but I 
> >> also sometimes put downgrade shorthand next to my scores for pilots that 
> >> enjoy knowing why they got a certain score. The occasions that pilots 
> >> have 
> >> approached me afterwards were supportive and spiritbuilding. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --Lance 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> 
> >> From: Woodward, Jim 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08 PM 
> >> 
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times? 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I heard a story from this years nats where one of the Advanced 
> >> competitors 
> >> that was in contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another 
> >> pilot 
> >> who was also in contention (and watching) yelled out an inappropriate 
> >> remark. I think that audience input or influence is something we should 
> >> steer away from for precision aerobatics. We certainly do not need it 
> >> to 
> >> be quiet like for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the 
> >> judges are not good. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Although slightly off topic - what I do think we should do is post all 
> >> raw 
> >> scores every flight for every pilot (I think this is done for the WC). 
> >> I 
> >> think this would provide the following opportunities: 
> >> 1. The availability of the raw scores would in itself represent and 
> >> INCREDIBLE judges training tool. Seasoned and new competitor alike 
> >> could 
> >> watch flights together, make comments and discuss, then go back later 
> >> and 
> >> see if what they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that 
> >> flight. There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging 
> >> training (.. ideas welcome). 
> >> 2. Posting of raw scores would allow "judges" to after-the-fact see how 
> >> they performed compared to their judging partners. There is all kinds 
> >> of 
> >> good value that could come from this. Whether noted privately or 
> >> discussed 
> >> between each other, it is good from time to time to check yourself. 
> >> 3. Posting of raw scores would help keep the honest man honest. By 
> >> posting 
> >> raw scores, I think there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut 
> >> it: 
> >> Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, "teams", regionality, or other bias' would 
> >> be 
> >> removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the judges scores 
> >> would be posted. 
> >> 4. And most importantly, increased "transparency" in the system helps 
> >> the 
> >> seasoned and new comer alike understand the process of the contest, 
> >> scoring, and "how" the 1000, 900, or 800's came to be. I believe that 
> >> no 
> >> matter whom you are, you want to leave a contest and feel like you (& 
> >> everyone) was dealt a fair hand. Transparency is the key to this. 
> >> 5. OK - last one - it takes "scoring" which is a topic of much 
> >> discussion 
> >> during and after a pattern contest in case you haven't heard, away from 
> >> a 
> >> shadowy discussion, and brings to the open this topic which everyone is 
> >> already discussing. This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the 
> >> conspiracy theorist and such whom all of our districts have. 
> >> Transparency 
> >> is good J 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I write none of this from the sour-grapes perspective. I love this 
> >> stuff. 
> >> I think the potential benefits from posting the raws would out weight 
> >> the 
> >> potential bad, provide more transparency for the competitor and also 
> >> provide 
> >> judges training. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Thanks, 
> >> 
> >> Jim W. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _____ 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
> >> [ 
> >> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] 
> >> On Behalf Of 
> >> JShulman 
> >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49 PM 
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List 
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times? 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Probably the best reason not to have it...lol. It's bad enough when we 
> >> screw-up... I mean when a pilot screws-up and you hear all the 
> >> OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when 
> >> someone gets judged for a maneuver that they are doing all wrong! Total 
> >> Chaos! 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Regards, 
> >> Jason 
> >> www.jasonshulman.com 
> >> www.shulmanaviation.com 
> >> www.composite-arf.com 
> >> 
> >> On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and aahhhs" from the spectators. 
> >> :) 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _____ 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
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> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> >> 
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> >> 
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> >> 
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> >> 
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _____ 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
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> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> >> 
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