[NSRCA-discussion] Spectators vs Scribes

Mark Atwood atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
Tue Aug 28 07:15:07 AKDT 2007 

One of the things that we¹ve successfully done away with is the need for
scribes...  And in doing so, we¹ve lost some ³forced² exposure and education
at the local club level.   When we used to run the contest here in
Cleveland, (and most that were run around the district), there was always a
big begging session at the local club meeting to get volunteers to be
scribes for EVERY class for EVERY round.  We needed quite a few people to
fill the chairs for the entire weekend.  It took some arm twisting, but
usually you could drum up enough people.

Those people invariably asked questions, learned a little more about
pattern, OFTEN had a small cursory interest which cause them to volunteer in
the first place, and the exposure to the contest, and sitting next to the
other competitors and learning the ropes, often tipped them over the edge to
trying it.  There was the frequent arm twisting of ³Hey...if you¹re going to
come out and scribe, why not bring a plane and try your hand at Novice??
I¹ll call you through it...²    That usually netted 3-4, if not 8-10 locals
to participate...and with a little luck...the bug would catch one of them.

We no longer have that need to beg people to scribe.  I¹m not saying we
should go back to that...just saying it¹s one more thing that¹s had a
negative impact on ³recruiting².

-Mark


On 8/28/07 9:00 AM, "Jerry Stebbins" <JAStebbins at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some other reason than the
> "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most "spectators" are other
> contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they are working, and if
> they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway. Those are they ones we
> can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!.
> Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be brought back by developing
> and forming a set of touring callers--how about calling the Dallas
> Cheerleaders and see if they would be interested. THAT would probably increase
> our "Spectator" base. :) :)
> Wonder what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone willing to
> fess-up?
> Jerry
>>  
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  
>> From:  John  Pavlick <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>
>>  
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>  
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00  AM
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't  behind the times.
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators  at a Pattern contest? Where
>> are they? Do wives and girlfriends  count?
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> John Pavlick
>> http://www.idseng.com
>>  
>>>  
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>  
>>> From:  John  Gayer <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>
>>>  
>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>  
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12  AM
>>>  
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We  aren't behind the times.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots  with
>>> airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on  the
>>> patterns and pattern in general.
>>> 
>>> Not having been to an IMAC  contest in years, are they doing better in
>>> providing information to  spectators?  Are they getting large crowds for the
>>> unknowns and  freestyles?
>>> The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I  recall, with
>>> raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.
>>> Must be  why they had such large crowds :-)
>>> John
>>> 
>>> Mark Atwood wrote:
>>>> To take that a step further...when was the last  time you saw them televise
>>>> the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is  basically what we
>>>> fly...the EXACT same routine.  They¹ve dropped the  ³figures² portion of
>>>> the competition completely.
>>>> 
>>>> But I still  think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree
>>>> it is likely  to create problems.
>>>> 
>>>> -M
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 8/27/07 11:30 PM,  "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
>>>> <mailto:jshulman at cfl.rr.com>   wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>> Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring?  Lets face it,
>>>>> if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that  can be done to
>>>>> spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown  flight after
>>>>> flight. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As for the scoring real-time... the only  one's that it would matter to
>>>>> would be the one's participating in the  contest. Not necessarily just the
>>>>> one's in the class, but the one's that  stay the extra day to watch. Until
>>>>> we throw in some sort of freestyle or  combat, it's just pattern. Who
>>>>> would watch figure skating without music?
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Jason
>>>>> www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com>
>>>>> www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com>
>>>>> www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com>
>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D> On  Behalf Of Lance
>>>>>> Van  Nostrand
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August  27, 2007 10:17 PM
>>>>>> To: NSRCA  Mailing  List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the   times?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm  willing to try things that would make pattern  more spectator
>>>>>> friendly.  I think the reason the lone spectator talking   during a
>>>>>> flight has such an effect is because its a lone person  and  talking loud
>>>>>> enough that judges can hear is rare.  If  it became common  place we
>>>>>> would soon tune it out and spectators  would be better able to follow
>>>>>> the contest.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Your points are excellent.  In my area we  don't  require judges to
>>>>>> initial their scoresheets.  I don'tunderstand   this and I always initial
>>>>>> mine, but I also sometimes put  downgrade shorthand  next to my scores
>>>>>> for pilots that enjoy  knowing why they got a certain  score.  The
>>>>>> occasions that  pilots have approached me afterwards were  supportive and
>>>>>> spiritbuilding.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> --Lance
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> From:  Woodward, Jim <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08   PM
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we   behind the  times?
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I heard a story  from this  years nats where one of the Advanced
>>>>>>> competitors that was in   contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver,
>>>>>>> and another  pilot who was also  in contention (and watching) yelled out
>>>>>>> an  inappropriate remark.  I  think that audience input or  influence is
>>>>>>> something we should steer away  from for precision  aerobatics.  We
>>>>>>> certainly do not need it to be quiet  like  for golf, but direct
>>>>>>> statements meant to be heard by the judges are  not  good.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Although  slightly  off topic ­ what I do think we should do is post all
>>>>>>> raw scores every flight  for every pilot (I think this is done  for the
>>>>>>> WC).  I think this would  provide the following  opportunities:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 1. The  availability of the raw  scores would in itself represent and
>>>>>>> INCREDIBLE judges training  tool.  Seasoned and new  competitor alike
>>>>>>> could watch flights  together, make comments  and discuss, then go back
>>>>>>> later and see if what  they thought  they saw was in line with the
>>>>>>> scores for that flight.    There is all kinds of opportunity here to
>>>>>>> facilitate  judging training (..  ideas  welcome).
>>>>>>> 2. Posting  of raw scores would  allow ³judges² to after-the-fact see
>>>>>>> how  they performed compared to their  judging partners.   There is all
>>>>>>> kinds of good value that could come  from  this.  Whether noted
>>>>>>> privately or discussed between each  other,  it is good from time to
>>>>>>> time to check  yourself.
>>>>>>> 3. Posting  of raw scores would  help keep the honest man honest.   By
>>>>>>> posting raw scores, I think  there would be a  reduction of bias any way
>>>>>>> you cut it:   Santa-Clausing,  Low-balling, ³teams², regionality, or
>>>>>>> other bias¹ would be   removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time
>>>>>>> that the  judges scores  would be posted.
>>>>>>> 4. And most  importantly,  increased ³transparency² in the system helps
>>>>>>> the seasoned and new comer  alike understand the process of  the
>>>>>>> contest, scoring, and ³how² the 1000,  900, or 800¹s came  to be.  I
>>>>>>> believe that no matter whom you are, you  want  to leave a contest and
>>>>>>> feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a   fair hand.  Transparency is the
>>>>>>> key to this.
>>>>>>> 5. OK ­ last  one ­ it takes  ³scoring² which is a topic of much
>>>>>>> discussion  during and after a pattern  contest in case you haven¹t
>>>>>>> heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and  brings to the  open this
>>>>>>> topic which everyone is already discussing.    This would do a lot to
>>>>>>> remove ammunition from the  conspiracy theorist and  such whom all of
>>>>>>> our districts have.   Transparency is good  J
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> I write  none of  this from the sour-grapes perspective.  I love  this
>>>>>>> stuff.  I  think the potential benefits from posting  the raws would out
>>>>>>> weight the  potential bad, provide more  transparency for the competitor
>>>>>>> and also provide  judges  training.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jim   W.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY   NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
>>>>>>> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)  and may
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>   On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> JShulman
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007  1:49  PM
>>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject:  Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the  times?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Probably the best  reason not to have it...lol.  It's bad enough when we
>>>>>>> screw-up... I mean when  a pilot  screws-up and you hear all the
>>>>>>> OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the   crowd. Now just imagine the uproar
>>>>>>> when someone gets judged  for a maneuver  that they are doing all wrong!
>>>>>>> Total   Chaos!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>> www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com>
>>>>>>> www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com>
>>>>>>> www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
On Behalf  Of  Derek  Koopowitz

 

can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and  aahhhs"  from the spectators.
:)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion   mailing  list
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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