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<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>One of the things that we’ve successfully done away with is the need for scribes... And in doing so, we’ve lost some “forced” exposure and education at the local club level. When we used to run the contest here in Cleveland, (and most that were run around the district), there was always a big begging session at the local club meeting to get volunteers to be scribes for EVERY class for EVERY round. We needed quite a few people to fill the chairs for the entire weekend. It took some arm twisting, but usually you could drum up enough people.<BR>
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Those people invariably asked questions, learned a little more about pattern, OFTEN had a small cursory interest which cause them to volunteer in the first place, and the exposure to the contest, and sitting next to the other competitors and learning the ropes, often tipped them over the edge to trying it. There was the frequent arm twisting of “Hey...if you’re going to come out and scribe, why not bring a plane and try your hand at Novice?? I’ll call you through it...” That usually netted 3-4, if not 8-10 locals to participate...and with a little luck...the bug would catch one of them.<BR>
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We no longer have that need to beg people to scribe. I’m not saying we should go back to that...just saying it’s one more thing that’s had a negative impact on “recruiting”.<BR>
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-Mark<BR>
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On 8/28/07 9:00 AM, "Jerry Stebbins" <JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net> wrote:<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE="Arial">Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some other reason than the "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most "spectators" are other contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they are working, and if they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway. Those are they ones we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!. <BR>
Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be brought back by developing and forming a set of touring callers--how about calling the Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be interested. THAT would probably increase our "Spectator" base. :) :) <BR>
Wonder what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone willing to fess-up?<BR>
Jerry<BR>
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----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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<B>From:</B> John Pavlick <a href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com"><mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com></a> <BR>
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<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 AM<BR>
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<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at a Pattern contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends count?<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">John Pavlick<BR>
<a href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</a><BR>
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----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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<B>From:</B> John Gayer <a href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"><mailto:jgghome@comcast.net></a> <BR>
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<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12 AM<BR>
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<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.<BR>
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Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots with airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on the patterns and pattern in general.<BR>
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Not having been to an IMAC contest in years, are they doing better in providing information to spectators? Are they getting large crowds for the unknowns and freestyles?<BR>
The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I recall, with raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.<BR>
Must be why they had such large crowds :-) <BR>
John<BR>
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Mark Atwood wrote: <BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">To take that a step further...when was the last time you saw them televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is basically what we fly...the EXACT same routine. They’ve dropped the “figures” portion of the competition completely. <BR>
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But I still think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree it is likely to create problems.<BR>
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-M<BR>
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On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, "JShulman" <jshulman@cfl.rr.com> <a href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com></a> wrote:<BR>
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</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><FONT COLOR="#0000FF"><FONT FACE="Arial">Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring? Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that can be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown flight after flight. <BR>
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As for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it would matter to would be the one's participating in the contest. Not necessarily just the one's in the class, but the one's that stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of freestyle or combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure skating without music? <BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Regards,<BR>
Jason<BR>
www.jasonshulman.com <a href="http://www.jasonshulman.com"><http://www.jasonshulman.com></a> <BR>
www.shulmanaviation.com <a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><http://www.shulmanaviation.com></a> <BR>
www.composite-arf.com <a href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><http://www.composite-arf.com></a> <BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR>
<B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D></a> <B>On Behalf Of </B>Lance Van Nostrand<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">I'm willing to try things that would make pattern more spectator friendly. I think the reason the lone spectator talking during a flight has such an effect is because its a lone person and talking loud enough that judges can hear is rare. If it became common place we would soon tune it out and spectators would be better able to follow the contest.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">Your points are excellent. In my area we don't require judges to initial their scoresheets. I don'tunderstand this and I always initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand next to my scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why they got a certain score. The occasions that pilots have approached me afterwards were supportive and spiritbuilding.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">--Lance<BR>
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----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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<B>From:</B> Woodward, Jim <a href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com"><mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com></a> <BR>
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<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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<B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08 PM<BR>
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<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?<BR>
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</FONT></SPAN><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>I heard a story from this years nats where one of the Advanced competitors that was in contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another pilot who was also in contention (and watching) yelled out an inappropriate remark. I think that audience input or influence is something we should steer away from for precision aerobatics. We certainly do not need it to be quiet like for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the judges are not good.<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Although slightly off topic – what I do think we should do is post all raw scores every flight for every pilot (I think this is done for the WC). I think this would provide the following opportunities:<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT><OL><LI><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>The availability of the raw scores would in itself represent and INCREDIBLE judges training tool. Seasoned and new competitor alike could watch flights together, make comments and discuss, then go back later and see if what they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that flight. There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging training (.. ideas welcome).</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Posting of raw scores would allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how they performed compared to their judging partners. There is all kinds of good value that could come from this. Whether noted privately or discussed between each other, it is good from time to time to check yourself.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Posting of raw scores would help keep the honest man honest. By posting raw scores, I think there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut it: Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, “teams”, regionality, or other bias’ would be removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the judges scores would be posted.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>And most importantly, increased “transparency” in the system helps the seasoned and new comer alike understand the process of the contest, scoring, and “how” the 1000, 900, or 800’s came to be. I believe that no matter whom you are, you want to leave a contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a fair hand. Transparency is the key to this. </SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>OK – last one – it takes “scoring” which is a topic of much discussion during and after a pattern contest in case you haven’t heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and brings to the open this topic which everyone is already discussing. This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the conspiracy theorist and such whom all of our districts have. Transparency is good </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>J <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></OL><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
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</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>I write none of this from the sour-grapes perspective. I love this stuff. I think the potential benefits from posting the raws would out weight the potential bad, provide more transparency for the competitor and also provide judges training.<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Thanks,<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Jim W.<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D></a> <B>On Behalf Of </B>JShulman<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times?<BR>
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<FONT COLOR="#0000FF">Probably the best reason not to have it...lol. It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when a pilot screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when someone gets judged for a maneuver that they are doing all wrong! Total Chaos!<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE="4"><FONT FACE="Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Regards,<BR>
Jason<BR>
www.jasonshulman.com <a href="http://www.jasonshulman.com"><http://www.jasonshulman.com></a> <BR>
www.shulmanaviation.com <a href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><http://www.shulmanaviation.com></a> <BR>
www.composite-arf.com <a href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><http://www.composite-arf.com></a> </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE="5"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'> <BR>
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</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>On Behalf Of </B>Derek Koopowitz<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'><FONT FACE="Times New Roman">can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and aahhhs" from the spectators. :)<BR>
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