[NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

Tue Aug 28 02:37:53 AKDT 2007

Same here Matt. There are always a few spectators milling around in the
background at our contests. They watch awhile and contribute to food sales.
If I notice them and have time I will get a score sheet for the class that
is flying and try to show them what we are doing and where the pilot is at
in the sequence if they are interested.

On real time score display, I was watching my Niece compete in a gymnastics
meet and the judges had a key pad of some sort. When the task was done the
judges would enter scores on their key pad and the scores would be displayed
on a scrolling sign board across the room for the audience to see. I didn't
see the system up close but may be able to be adapted for our use.

Dowayne 

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Matthew
Frederick
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:14 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

We've had spectators at both contests I've attended so far this year.
Usually people who are into flying, just not into pattern. They come out,
ask questions, watch some flights, and have a burger. There's not many, and
they usually hide out in the background, but you can normally spot at least
one or two that are there just to watch.

Matt

----- Original Message ----- 

From: John Pavlick <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at a Pattern contest? Where
are they? Do wives and girlfriends count?

John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: John Gayer <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots with
airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on the
patterns and pattern in general.

Not having been to an IMAC contest in years, are they doing better in
providing information to spectators?  Are they getting large crowds for the
unknowns and freestyles?
The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I recall, with raw
scores and handed out the patterns being flown.
Must be why they had such large crowds :-) 
John

Mark Atwood wrote: 

To take that a step further...when was the last time you saw them televise
the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is basically what we fly...the
EXACT same routine.  They've dropped the "figures" portion of the
competition completely.  

But I still think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree it
is likely to create problems.

-M

On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, "JShulman"  <mailto:jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
<jshulman at cfl.rr.com> wrote:

Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring? Lets face it, if
you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that can be done to spice
it up. It's still the same sequences being flown flight after flight. 

As for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it would matter to would
be the one's participating in the contest. Not necessarily just the one's in
the class, but the one's that stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in
some sort of freestyle or combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure
skating without music? 
Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com 

-----Original Message-----
From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D> On Behalf Of Lance Van
Nostrand
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM
To: NSRCA  Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the  times?

I'm willing to try things that would make pattern  more spectator friendly.
I think the reason the lone spectator talking  during a flight has such an
effect is because its a lone person and  talking loud enough that judges can
hear is rare.  If it became common  place we would soon tune it out and
spectators would be better able to follow  the contest.

Your points are excellent.  In my area we  don't require judges to initial
their scoresheets.  I don'tunderstand  this and I always initial mine, but I
also sometimes put downgrade shorthand  next to my scores for pilots that
enjoy knowing why they got a certain  score.  The occasions that pilots have
approached me afterwards were  supportive and spiritbuilding.

--Lance

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  Woodward, Jim  <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
<mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08  PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the times?

I heard a story  from this years nats where one of the Advanced competitors
that was in  contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another pilot
who was also  in contention (and watching) yelled out an inappropriate
remark.  I  think that audience input or influence is something we should
steer away  from for precision aerobatics.  We certainly do not need it to
be quiet  like for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the
judges are not  good.

Although slightly  off topic - what I do think we should do is post all raw
scores every flight  for every pilot (I think this is done for the WC).  I
think this would  provide the following opportunities:

1.	The availability of the raw  scores would in itself represent and
INCREDIBLE judges training  tool.  Seasoned and new competitor alike could
watch flights  together, make comments and discuss, then go back later and
see if what  they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that
flight.   There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging
training (..  ideas welcome).   
2.	Posting of raw scores would  allow "judges" to after-the-fact see
how they performed compared to their  judging partners.  There is all kinds
of good value that could come  from this.  Whether noted privately or
discussed between each other,  it is good from time to time to check
yourself.   
3.	Posting of raw scores would  help keep the honest man honest.  By
posting raw scores, I think  there would be a reduction of bias any way you
cut it:   Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, "teams", regionality, or other bias'
would be  removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the judges
scores  would be posted.   
4.	And most importantly,  increased "transparency" in the system helps
the seasoned and new comer  alike understand the process of the contest,
scoring, and "how" the 1000,  900, or 800's came to be.  I believe that no
matter whom you are, you  want to leave a contest and feel like you (&
everyone) was dealt a  fair hand.  Transparency is the key to this.    
5.	OK - last one - it takes  "scoring" which is a topic of much
discussion during and after a pattern  contest in case you haven't heard,
away from a shadowy discussion, and  brings to the open this topic which
everyone is already discussing.   This would do a lot to remove ammunition
from the conspiracy theorist and  such whom all of our districts have.
Transparency is good  J  

I write none of  this from the sour-grapes perspective.  I love this stuff.
I  think the potential benefits from posting the raws would out weight the
potential bad, provide more transparency for the competitor and also provide
judges training.

Thanks,

Jim  W.

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From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>  On Behalf Of JShulman
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49  PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the times?

Probably the best  reason not to have it...lol. It's bad enough when we
screw-up... I mean when  a pilot screws-up and you hear all the
OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the  crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when
someone gets judged for a maneuver  that they are doing all wrong! Total
Chaos!

Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com  

On Behalf  Of Derek  Koopowitz

can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and aahhhs"  from the spectators.   :)

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