[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in classselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
rcmaster199 at aol.com
rcmaster199 at aol.com
Fri Aug 17 06:38:50 AKDT 2007
Ronnie, you are too kind. What's happening to you?? Heh heh
I am actually going to be pissed off becasue I won't have those rants to laugh about anymore. Sigh!!
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 9:31 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in classselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
I look on this situation as one in which a guy who was seriously
interested in Pattern development went "off the deep end" because he
perceived that his ideas were totally rejected. What a #$@! shame!
I don't know him, but he obviously cared a lot about what he wrote.
Ron Van Putte
On Aug 16, 2007, at 7:44 PM, Gene Maurice wrote:
> Somebody needs a little more fiber in their diet. :<)
>
> Gene Maurice
> gene.mauirce at sgmservice.com
> Plano, Texas
> AMA 3408 NSRCA 877
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
> Huber
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:41 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in
> classselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
> Be elitist
>
> Masters know everything
>
> no one else's opinions are worth a crap
>
> Doesn't matter that I;ve been flying RC 30 years
>
> Doesn't matter that I've been building with balsa since I was 7 and
> my FIRST
>
> HOME DESIGNED PLANE flew just fine... when I was 10
>
> I know nothing
>
> I'm "Just a Sportsman"
>
> bye
>
> Cancel my NSRCA membership
>
> I won't be at the nexst contest
>
> I won't be helping at the next local contest (which I have been
> doing every
> year I have been in the local club.)
>
> I won't support Pattern any more in any way.
>
> And... I'll have my name pulled from this e-mail list before you can
> answer... AND DON'T e-mail "back channel.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
>
>> Glen didn't write that, George did. George is an intermediate
>> pilot. He is
>> in no way an elitist, but he is just as offended by the sandbagging
>> comment
>> as everyone else who knows Arch and Glen. It has nothing to do with
>> "political correctness" like Fred tried to say. It has more to do
>> with how
>> difficult it is to get your point across if you're trying to speak
>> through
>
>> a
>> size 11 Nike. (Foot in mouth for those having trouble with that).
>>
>> Matt
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pete Cosky" <pcosky at comcast.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>
>>
>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>>> Sportsman's
>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>>>> Championship. <
>>>
>>> Glen,
>>>
>>> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that
>>> cause
>>> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a
>>> person
>>> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their
>>> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him
>>> express his
>>> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>>>
>>> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman,
>>> but
>>> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one
>>> above
>>> does
>>> nothing to help the sport.
>>>
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection? -->
>>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>>
>>>
>>>> Glen,
>>>>
>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>>> Sportsman's
>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>>>> Championship. I
>>>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in
>>>> Masters
>>>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>>>>
>>>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread
>>>> because
>>>> I
>>>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people
>>>> trying
>>>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Masters is the top of the AMA
>>>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition. There isn't a
>>>> real
>>>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen
>>>> in D6
>>>> this
>>>> year. So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing
>>>> against that
>>>> have a problem with you defending your title! If you want to go
>>>> FAI,
>>>> then
>>>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can
>>>> always fly
>>>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>>>>
>>>> On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the
>>>> storms headed
>>>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>> ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and
>>>>> packed with
>>>>> emotionally based comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of
>>>>> highs and
>>>>> lows
>>>>> on what I should do next. The rules state that I can return to
>>>>> the
>>>>> NATS
>>>>> and
>>>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire. I'm asking
>>>>> myself is
>>>>> that
>>>>> such a bad thing. Well a few have voiced their opinions that
>>>>> it would
>>>>> be.
>>>>> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they
>>>>> thinking what's
>>>>> good
>>>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
>>>>>
>>>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing,
>>>>> this
>>>>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner. Second is to
>>>>> be as
>>>>> competitive as I can.
>>>>>
>>>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>>>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them
>>>>> have
>>>>> fun
>>>>> and
>>>>> be competitive in this sport.
>>>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote
>>>>> their
>>>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?
>>>>> The short
>>>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a
>>>>> middle of
>>>>> the
>>>>> pack FAI competitor? IMHO top level Masters competitors should
>>>>> have
>>>>> influence on equipments trends. Here in the US we are
>>>>> fortunate to
>>>>> have
>>>>> a
>>>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit
>>>>> from having
>>>>> more
>>>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices. From my vantage
>>>>> point
>>>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most
>>>>> influence
>>>>> over the market.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
>>>>> competitors
>>>>> use
>>>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds. I feel
>>>>> there is
>>>>> an
>>>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar
>>>>> effect.
>>>>> A
>>>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and
>>>>> Stafford.
>>>>> Many
>>>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here
>>>>> in the
>>>>> US
>>>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs
>>>>> especially
>>>>> at
>>>>> the Masters level.
>>>>>
>>>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I
>>>>> choose to
>>>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a
>>>>> sandbagger
>>>>> but
>>>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the
>>>>> sport.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> Hester
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>> selection?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call
>>>>> "flying"
>>>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>>>>>
>>>>> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because
>>>>> he said
>>>>> his
>>>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may
>>>>> or may
>>>>> not
>>>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice,
>>>>> skill,
>>>>> the
>>>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's
>>>>> certainly
>>>>> capable of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and
>>>>> whether
>>>>> you
>>>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a
>>>>> masters
>>>>> pilot.
>>>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and
>>>>> paying
>>>>> his
>>>>>
>>>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a
>>>>> national
>>>>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't
>>>>> have. You
>>>>> can't
>>>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in
>>>>> competition,
>>>>> not
>>>>> at
>>>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the
>>>>> manuevers
>>>>> are different, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost
>>>>> 100%
>>>>> positive
>>>>>
>>>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way.
>>>>> FAI is a
>>>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots
>>>>> complaining
>>>>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and
>>>>> they
>>>>> like
>>>>> them as people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason
>>>>> for that.
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and
>>>>> does...the
>>>>> same
>>>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>>>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and
>>>>> thier
>>>>> own
>>>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
>>>>> decision.
>>>>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters
>>>>> pilots have
>>>>> to
>>>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>> selection?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the
>>>>>> class
>>>>>> until
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> won a particular event... which how many people have EVER
>>>>>> won? Out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> many who have competed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in
>>>>>> Masters wants
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> the best too. Most will NEVER make it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reality is not politically correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same
>>>>>> trophy:
>>>>>> "Participant"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>> The person who made the comment about not moving up until
>>>>>>> winning
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Nats
>>>>>>> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the
>>>>>>> Nats
>>>>>>> finish
>>>>>>> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the
>>>>>>> nation.
>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a
>>>>>>> personal goal
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> knowing
>>>>>>> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly
>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters
>>>>>>> in D6
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> would call him that, and those are the people he competes
>>>>>>> with on a
>>>>>>> regular
>>>>>>> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in
>>>>>>> Masters
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> than for district championships as it is the highest level of
>>>>>>> AMA
>>>>>>> Pattern.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> completely agree with the point someone else made that stated we
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that
>>>>>>> forced me
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>>>>>>> turnaround
>>>>>>> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
>>>>>>> maneuvers
>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win... I don't
>>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from
>>>>>>>> Sportsman.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>>>>>>>> only 2
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> flying. I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline...
>>>>>>>> and to be
>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have
>>>>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll
>>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>> DEAD
>>>>>>>> LAST
>>>>>>>> FOREVER. I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being
>>>>>>>> competitive
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for
>>>>>>>> years so
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> always win...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up
>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger. (not even
>>>>>>>> bothering
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>>>>>>>> only 2
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> flying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>> agendas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know Glen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I
>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems
>>>>>>>>> to be a
>>>>>>>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that
>>>>>>>>> stepping stone
>>>>>>>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by
>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>> (which it currently is).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot
>>>>>>>>> who does
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I
>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to
>>>>>>>>> Masters
>>>>>>>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to
>>>>>>>>> achieve
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the
>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and
>>>>>>>>> used for
>>>>>>>>> example only.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they give
>>>>>>>>> me a
>>>>>>>>> big
>>>>>>>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk
>>>>>>>>> continually
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition,
>>>>>>>>> and if
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it
>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to
>>>>>>>>> go play
>>>>>>>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st
>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>> (just ask my wife)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the
>>>>>>>>>> Masters
>>>>>>>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the
>>>>>>>>>> FAI
>>>>>>>>>> class at any
>>>>>>>>>> contest but not both.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet
>>>>>>>>>> again)
>>>>>>>>> is:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
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