[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility inclassselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season

[george w. kennie]

Yeah, and I found him to be an extremely SMART buggar !!!!  I didn't agree 
with him on everything, but most of the time I learned something from his 
posts. Too bad his sensitivity level was so easily inflamed, but then I 
think I've been there on occasion.
G.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Van Putte" <vanputte at cox.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility 
inclassselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season


>I look on this situation as one in which a guy who was seriously
> interested in Pattern development went "off the deep end" because he
> perceived that his ideas were totally rejected.  What a #$@! shame!
> I don't know him, but he obviously cared a lot about what he wrote.
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
> On Aug 16, 2007, at 7:44 PM, Gene Maurice wrote:
>
>> Somebody needs a little more fiber in their diet. :<)
>>
>> Gene Maurice
>> gene.mauirce at sgmservice.com
>> Plano, Texas
>> AMA 3408 NSRCA 877
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
>> Huber
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:41 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in
>> classselection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>
>> Be elitist
>>
>> Masters know everything
>>
>> no one else's opinions are worth a crap
>>
>> Doesn't matter that I;ve been flying RC 30 years
>>
>> Doesn't matter that I've been building with balsa since I was 7 and
>> my FIRST
>>
>> HOME DESIGNED PLANE flew just fine... when I was 10
>>
>> I know nothing
>>
>> I'm "Just a Sportsman"
>>
>> bye
>>
>> Cancel my NSRCA membership
>>
>> I won't be at the nexst contest
>>
>> I won't be helping at the next local contest (which I have been
>> doing every
>> year I have been in the local club.)
>>
>> I won't support Pattern any more in any way.
>>
>> And... I'll have my name pulled from this e-mail list before you can
>> answer... AND DON'T e-mail "back channel.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection?-->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>
>>
>>> Glen didn't write that, George did. George is an intermediate
>>> pilot. He is
>>> in no way an elitist, but he is just as offended by the sandbagging
>>> comment
>>> as everyone else who knows Arch and Glen. It has nothing to do with
>>> "political correctness" like Fred tried to say. It has more to do
>>> with how
>>> difficult it is to get your point across if you're trying to speak
>>> through
>>
>>> a
>>> size 11 Nike. (Foot in mouth for those having trouble with that).
>>>
>>> Matt
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pete Cosky" <pcosky at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>>>> Sportsman's
>>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>>>>> Championship. <
>>>>
>>>> Glen,
>>>>
>>>> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that
>>>> cause
>>>> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a
>>>> person
>>>> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their
>>>> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him
>>>> express his
>>>> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>>>>
>>>> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman,
>>>> but
>>>> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one
>>>> above
>>>> does
>>>> nothing to help the sport.
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Pete
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> selection? -->
>>>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Glen,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>>>> Sportsman's
>>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>>>>> Championship.  I
>>>>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in
>>>>> Masters
>>>>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread
>>>>> because
>>>>> I
>>>>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people
>>>>> trying
>>>>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the AMA
>>>>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a
>>>>> real
>>>>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen
>>>>> in D6
>>>>> this
>>>>> year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing
>>>>> against that
>>>>> have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go
>>>>> FAI,
>>>>> then
>>>>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can
>>>>> always fly
>>>>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>>>>>
>>>>> On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the
>>>>> storms headed
>>>>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>>>>>
>>>>> George
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and
>>>>>> packed with
>>>>>> emotionally based comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of
>>>>>> highs and
>>>>>> lows
>>>>>> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> NATS
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking
>>>>>> myself is
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that
>>>>>> it would
>>>>>> be.
>>>>>> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they
>>>>>> thinking what's
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing,
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second is to
>>>>>> be as
>>>>>> competitive as I can.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>>>>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> fun
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> be competitive in this sport.
>>>>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?
>>>>>> The short
>>>>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a
>>>>>> middle of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are
>>>>>> fortunate to
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit
>>>>>> from having
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my vantage
>>>>>> point
>>>>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most
>>>>>> influence
>>>>>> over the market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
>>>>>> competitors
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar
>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>> A
>>>>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and
>>>>>> Stafford.
>>>>>> Many
>>>>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> US
>>>>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs
>>>>>> especially
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> the Masters level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I
>>>>>> choose to
>>>>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a
>>>>>> sandbagger
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the
>>>>>> sport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> Hester
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call
>>>>>> "flying"
>>>>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because
>>>>>> he said
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may
>>>>>> or may
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice,
>>>>>> skill,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's
>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>> capable of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and
>>>>>> whether
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a
>>>>>> masters
>>>>>> pilot.
>>>>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and
>>>>>> paying
>>>>>> his
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a
>>>>>> national
>>>>>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't
>>>>>> have. You
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in
>>>>>> competition,
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the
>>>>>> manuevers
>>>>>> are different, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost
>>>>>> 100%
>>>>>> positive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way.
>>>>>> FAI is a
>>>>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots
>>>>>> complaining
>>>>>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> them as people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason
>>>>>> for that.
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and
>>>>>> does...the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>>>>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and
>>>>>> thier
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
>>>>>> decision.
>>>>>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters
>>>>>> pilots have
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the
>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>> until
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> won a particular event... which how many people have EVER
>>>>>>> won?  Out
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> many who have competed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in
>>>>>>> Masters wants
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reality is not politically correct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same
>>>>>>> trophy:
>>>>>>> "Participant"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>> The person who made the comment about not moving up until
>>>>>>>> winning
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Nats
>>>>>>>> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the
>>>>>>>> Nats
>>>>>>>> finish
>>>>>>>> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the
>>>>>>>> nation.
>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a
>>>>>>>> personal goal
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> knowing
>>>>>>>> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly
>>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters
>>>>>>>> in D6
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> would call him that, and those are the people he competes
>>>>>>>> with on a
>>>>>>>> regular
>>>>>>>> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in
>>>>>>>> Masters
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> than for district championships as it is the highest level of
>>>>>>>> AMA
>>>>>>>> Pattern.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> completely agree with the point someone else made that stated we
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the
>>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that
>>>>>>>> forced me
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>>>>>>>> turnaround
>>>>>>>> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
>>>>>>>> maneuvers
>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
>>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't
>>>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from
>>>>>>>>> Sportsman.
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>>>>>>>>> only 2
>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline...
>>>>>>>>> and to be
>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have
>>>>>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll
>>>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>> DEAD
>>>>>>>>> LAST
>>>>>>>>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being
>>>>>>>>> competitive
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for
>>>>>>>>> years so
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> always win...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up
>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even
>>>>>>>>> bothering
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>>>>>>>>> only 2
>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>> flying.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>> agendas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know Glen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I
>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems
>>>>>>>>>> to be a
>>>>>>>>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that
>>>>>>>>>> stepping stone
>>>>>>>>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by
>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>>> (which it currently is).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot
>>>>>>>>>> who does
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I
>>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to
>>>>>>>>>> Masters
>>>>>>>>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to
>>>>>>>>>> achieve
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the
>>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and
>>>>>>>>>> used for
>>>>>>>>>> example only.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they give
>>>>>>>>>> me a
>>>>>>>>>> big
>>>>>>>>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk
>>>>>>>>>> continually
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition,
>>>>>>>>>> and if
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it
>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to
>>>>>>>>>> go play
>>>>>>>>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st
>>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>> (just ask my wife)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the
>>>>>>>>>>> Masters
>>>>>>>>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the
>>>>>>>>>>> FAI
>>>>>>>>>>> class at any
>>>>>>>>>>> contest but not both.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet
>>>>>>>>>>> again)
>>>>>>>>>> is:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release
>>>>>>>>>> Date:
>>>>>>>>>> 8/14/2007
>>>>>>>>>> 5:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date:
>>>>>>>> 8/14/2007
>>>>>>>> 5:19 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/957 - Release Date:
>>> 8/16/2007
>>> 1:46 PM
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>