[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --> Personal dilemma, what to do next season

Mark Atwood atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
Thu Aug 16 12:16:00 AKDT 2007 

Lol...busted.  My turn to mistakenly reply to the list.




On 8/16/07 4:01 PM, "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> wrote:

> Oh very much so.  This entire thread and the six associated with it were a
> waste.  But than as you read, I'm not an advocate of forced advancement at
> any level.
> 
> 
> On 8/16/07 3:11 PM, "Pete Cosky" <pcosky at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> Yeah...I saw that after I hit send...that and it went to the list...I wanted
>> it to go to the original sender I must not have hit cntl>v to paste the
>> original senders address.
>> 
>> Point or not, making a statement like tt in a public forum is not good for
>> the sport. I think you would agree.
>> 
>> Pete
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <rcpattern at stx.rr.com>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:04
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>> 
>> 
>>> Pete,
>>> 
>>> Glen did not make this statement.  That statement was made by someone
>>> defending Glen.  Honestly, I think the guy had a point,
>>> 
>>> Arch
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net>
>>> Date: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:02 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --
>>>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> 
>>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>>> Sportsman's
>>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>>>> Championship. <
>>>> 
>>>> Glen,
>>>> 
>>>> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that
>>>> cause
>>>> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who
>>>> a person
>>>> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to
>>>> their
>>>> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express
>>>> his
>>>> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>>>> 
>>>> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman,
>>>> but
>>>> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one
>>>> above does
>>>> nothing to help the sport.
>>>> 
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>> 
>>>> Pete
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> selection? -->
>>>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Glen,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>>> Sportsman's
>>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>>>> Championship.  I
>>>>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be
>>>> in Masters
>>>>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread
>>>> because I
>>>>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of
>>>> people trying
>>>>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the
>>>> AMA
>>>>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a
>>>> real
>>>>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen
>>>> in D6  this
>>>>> year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing
>>>> against that
>>>>> have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go
>>>> FAI, then
>>>>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can
>>>> always fly
>>>>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the
>>>> storms headed
>>>>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>>>>> 
>>>>> George
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and
>>>> packed with
>>>>>> emotionally based comments.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of
>>>> highs and
>>>>>> lows
>>>>>> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to
>>>> the NATS
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking
>>>> myself is
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that
>>>> it would
>>>>>> be.
>>>>>> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they
>>>> thinking what's
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing,
>>>> this>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second
>>>> is to be as
>>>>>> competitive as I can.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>>>>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them
>>>> have fun
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> be competitive in this sport.
>>>>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and
>>>> promote their
>>>>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?
>>>> The short
>>>>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a
>>>> middle of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should
>>>> have>> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are
>>>> fortunate to have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit
>>>> from having
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my
>>>> vantage point
>>>>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the
>>>> most
>>>>>> influence
>>>>>> over the market.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
>>>> competitors
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel
>>>> there is
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a
>>>> similar effect.
>>>>>> A
>>>>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and
>>>> Stafford.
>>>>>> Many
>>>>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here
>>>> in the US
>>>>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs
>>>> especially
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> the Masters level.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I
>>>> choose to
>>>>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a
>>>> sandbagger
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the
>>> sport.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Mike
>>>>>> Hester
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> selection?>>
>>>>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we
>>>> call
>>>>>> "flying"
>>>>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because
>>>> he said
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may
>>>> or may not
>>>>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice,
>>>> skill,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's
>>>> certainly>> capable of it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and
>>>> whether
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a
>>>> masters
>>>>>> pilot.
>>>>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work
>>>> and paying
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a
>>>> national>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply
>>>> don't have. You
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in
>>>> competition, not
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different,
>>>> the
>>>>>> manuevers
>>>>>> are different, etc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost
>>>> 100%
>>>>>> positive
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way.
>>>> FAI is a
>>>>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots
>>>> complaining>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the
>>>> competition, and they like
>>>>>> them as people.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason
>>>> for that.
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and
>>>> does...the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>>>>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and
>>>> thier own
>>>>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
>>>> decision.>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time
>>>> masters pilots have to
>>>>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Mike
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> selection?>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the
>>>> class
>>>>>>> until
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> won a particular event... which how many people have EVER
>>>> won?  Out of
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> many who have competed?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in
>>>> Masters wants
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this
>>> sport...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Reality is not politically correct.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same
>>>> trophy:>> > "Participant"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> selection?>> >
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>>> The person who made the comment about not moving up until
>>>> winning the
>>>>>>>> Nats
>>>>>>>> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to
>>>> the Nats
>>>>>>>> finish
>>>>>>>> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in
>>>> the nation.
>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a
>>>> personal goal
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met
>>>> Arch, and
>>>>>>>> knowing
>>>>>>>> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you
>>>> blatantly
>>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys
>>>> Masters in D6
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> would call him that, and those are the people he competes
>>>> with on a
>>>>>>>> regular
>>>>>>>> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation
>>>> in Masters
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> than for district championships as it is the highest level
>>>> of AMA
>>>>>>>> Pattern.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> completely agree with the point someone else made that
>>>> stated we
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the
>>>> control of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that
>>>> forced me to
>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>>>>>>>> turnaround
>>>>>>>> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
>>>> maneuvers>> >> that,
>>>>>>>> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
>>>> consider
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> selection?>> >>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't
>>>> ever
>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from
>>>> Sportsman.
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>>>> only 2
>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline...
>>>> and to be
>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I
>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll
>>>> place
>>>>>>>>> DEAD
>>>>>>>>> LAST
>>>>>>>>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not
>>>> being
>>>>>>>>> competitive
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for
>>>> years so
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> always win...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up
>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even
>>>> bothering
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>>>> only 2
>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>> flying.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
>>>> personal>> >>> agendas.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> selection?>> >>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I know Glen.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I
>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems
>>>> to be a
>>>>>>>>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that
>>>> stepping stone
>>>>>>>>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination
>>>> all by
>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>>> (which it currently is).
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot
>>>> who does
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I
>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves
>>>> up to
>>>>>>>>>> Masters
>>>>>>>>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to
>>>> achieve
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given
>>>> the option
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and
>>>> used for
>>>>>>>>>> example only.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they
>>>> give me a big
>>>>>>>>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk
>>>> continually
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was
>>>> competition, and if
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do
>>>> it better
>>>>>>>>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to
>>>> go play
>>>>>>>>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the
>>>> 1st time.
>>>>>>>>>> (just ask my wife)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>> selection?>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-
>>>> discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from
>>>> the Masters
>>>>>>>>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or
>>>> the FAI
>>>>>>>>>>> class at any
>>>>>>>>>>> contest but not both.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered
>>>> (yet again)
>>>>>>>>>> is:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release
>>>> Date:>> >>>> 8/14/2007
>>>>>>>>>> 5:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release
>>> Date:
>>>>>>>> 8/14/2007
>>>>>>>> 5:19 PM
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

More information about the NSRCA-discussion mailing list