[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --> Personal dilemma, what to do next season

glmiller3 at suddenlink.net glmiller3 at suddenlink.net
Thu Aug 16 12:23:47 AKDT 2007 

Pete, 

That was ME not Glen.  I apologize to you and anyone else that thinks that statement was elitist.  I only fly intermediate and I've tried to stay out of this conversation because I don't see a problem with Masters and FAI as it stands and I won't have a "dog in the hunt"  for many years, if ever.  I do know Glen, and I've met Arch and several other D6 Masters and FAI pilots and I take umbridge when someone who apparently doesn't know them, doesn't fly against them and has little experience in Pattern competition in general impunes their character and motives.  

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I personally don't think everyone's opinion is equally informed or valid.   As I said, I'd love to see Glen defend his Masters Championship, but if he decides that he has the time and desire to change to FAI, I'll enjoy watching just as much flying P0X as I do watching him fly Masters. 

Lets talk about something else that I can voice a completely uninformed and strongly held opinion about<G>! 

George

---- Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net> wrote: 
> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie Sportsman's 
> >comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. <
> 
> Glen,
> 
> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that cause 
> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a person 
> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their 
> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express his 
> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
> 
> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman, but 
> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one above does 
> nothing to help the sport.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Pete
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --> 
> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
> 
> 
> > Glen,
> >
> > I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie Sportsman's 
> > comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship.  I 
> > love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in Masters 
> > when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
> >
> > I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread because I 
> > didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people trying 
> > to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the AMA 
> > pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a real 
> > problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen in D6  this 
> > year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
> >
> > I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing against that 
> > have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go FAI, then 
> > please do, but make it your decision and of course you can always fly 
> > Masters AND FAI at different contests.
> >
> > On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the storms headed 
> > for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
> >
> > George
> >
> > ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
> >> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and packed with
> >> emotionally based comments.
> >>
> >> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of highs and 
> >> lows
> >> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to the NATS 
> >> and
> >> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking myself is 
> >> that
> >> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that it would 
> >> be.
> >> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they thinking what's 
> >> good
> >> for the pattern community as a whole?
> >>
> >> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing, this
> >> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second is to be as
> >> competitive as I can.
> >>
> >> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
> >> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them have fun 
> >> and
> >> be competitive in this sport.
> >> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote their
> >> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
> >>
> >> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?  The short
> >> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a middle of 
> >> the
> >> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should have
> >> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are fortunate to have 
> >> a
> >> large group of national level competitors who would benefit from having 
> >> more
> >> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my vantage point
> >> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most 
> >> influence
> >> over the market.
> >>
> >> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI competitors 
> >> use
> >> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel there is 
> >> an
> >> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar effect. 
> >> A
> >> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and Stafford. 
> >> Many
> >> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here in the US
> >> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs especially 
> >> at
> >> the Masters level.
> >>
> >> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I choose to
> >> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a sandbagger 
> >> but
> >> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the sport.
> >>
> >> ~Glen
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike 
> >> Hester
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >>
> >> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call 
> >> "flying"
> >> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
> >>
> >> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because he said 
> >> his
> >> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may or may not
> >> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice, skill, 
> >> the
> >> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's certainly
> >> capable of it.
> >>
> >> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and whether 
> >> you
> >> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a masters 
> >> pilot.
> >> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and paying 
> >> his
> >>
> >> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a national
> >> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't have. You 
> >> can't
> >> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in competition, not 
> >> at
> >> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the 
> >> manuevers
> >> are different, etc.
> >>
> >> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost 100% 
> >> positive
> >>
> >> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way. FAI is a
> >> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots complaining
> >> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and they like
> >> them as people.
> >>
> >> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason for that. 
> >> I'd
> >> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and does...the 
> >> same
> >> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
> >> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and thier own
> >> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that decision.
> >> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters pilots have to
> >> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
> >>
> >> -Mike
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >>
> >>
> >> > Well...
> >> >
> >> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the class 
> >> > until
> >> > he
> >> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER won?  Out of 
> >> > how
> >> > many who have competed?
> >> >
> >> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
> >> >
> >> > You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
> >> >
> >> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in Masters wants 
> >> > to
> >> > be
> >> > the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
> >> >
> >> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...
> >> >
> >> > Reality is not politically correct.
> >> >
> >> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same trophy:
> >> > "Participant"
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Fred,
> >> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until winning the
> >> >> Nats
> >> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the Nats 
> >> >> finish
> >> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the nation. 
> >> >> He
> >> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a personal goal 
> >> >> he
> >> >> has
> >> >> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch, and 
> >> >> knowing
> >> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly 
> >> >> calling
> >> >> him
> >> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters in D6 
> >> >> who
> >> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes with on a
> >> >> regular
> >> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in Masters
> >> >> other
> >> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level of AMA
> >> >> Pattern.
> >> >> I
> >> >> completely agree with the point someone else made that stated we 
> >> >> should
> >> >> not
> >> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the control of 
> >> >> the
> >> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that forced me to
> >> >> move
> >> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full 
> >> >> turnaround
> >> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many maneuvers
> >> >> that,
> >> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally consider 
> >> >> to
> >> >> be
> >> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
> >> >>
> >> >> Matt
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't ever 
> >> >>> expect
> >> >>> to
> >> >>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from Sportsman. 
> >> >>> The
> >> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
> >> >>> others
> >> >>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline... and to be
> >> >>> around
> >> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have 
> >> >>> learned
> >> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll place 
> >> >>> DEAD
> >> >>> LAST
> >> >>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being 
> >> >>> competitive
> >> >>> if
> >> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for years so 
> >> >>> they
> >> >>> can
> >> >>> always win...
> >> >>>
> >> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up with the
> >> >>> point
> >> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even bothering 
> >> >>> to
> >> >>> look up who made the referenced post...)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
> >> >>> others
> >> >>> flying.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier personal
> >> >>> agendas.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
> >> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>I know Glen.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I really 
> >> >>>> just
> >> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems to be a
> >> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that stepping stone
> >> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by 
> >> >>>> itself
> >> >>>> (which it currently is).
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot who does 
> >> >>>> not
> >> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I personally 
> >> >>>> like
> >> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to 
> >> >>>> Masters
> >> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to achieve 
> >> >>>> an
> >> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the option 
> >> >>>> of
> >> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and used for
> >> >>>> example only.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they give me a big
> >> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk continually 
> >> >>>> about
> >> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition, and if 
> >> >>>> you
> >> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it better
> >> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to go play
> >> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st time.
> >> >>>> (just ask my wife)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> -Doug
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
> >> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
> >> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the Masters
> >> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the FAI
> >> >>>>> class at any
> >> >>>>> contest but not both.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ~Glen
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> >> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
> >> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
> >> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
> >> >>>>> selection?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet again)
> >> >>>> is:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -Doug
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >> >>>>>
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