[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --> Personal dilemma, what to do next season

Mark Atwood atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
Thu Aug 16 12:01:41 AKDT 2007 

Oh very much so.  This entire thread and the six associated with it were a
waste.  But than as you read, I'm not an advocate of forced advancement at
any level.


On 8/16/07 3:11 PM, "Pete Cosky" <pcosky at comcast.net> wrote:

> Yeah...I saw that after I hit send...that and it went to the list...I wanted
> it to go to the original sender I must not have hit cntl>v to paste the
> original senders address.
> 
> Point or not, making a statement like tt in a public forum is not good for
> the sport. I think you would agree.
> 
> Pete
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <rcpattern at stx.rr.com>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:04
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
> 
> 
>> Pete,
>> 
>> Glen did not make this statement.  That statement was made by someone
>> defending Glen.  Honestly, I think the guy had a point,
>> 
>> Arch
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net>
>> Date: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:02 pm
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --
>>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> 
>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>> Sportsman's
>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>>> Championship. <
>>> 
>>> Glen,
>>> 
>>> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that
>>> cause
>>> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who
>>> a person
>>> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to
>>> their
>>> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express
>>> his
>>> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>>> 
>>> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman,
>>> but
>>> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one
>>> above does
>>> nothing to help the sport.
>>> 
>>> Just my opinion.
>>> 
>>> Pete
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection? -->
>>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Glen,
>>>> 
>>>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>> Sportsman's
>>>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>>> Championship.  I
>>>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be
>>> in Masters
>>>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>>>> 
>>>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread
>>> because I
>>>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of
>>> people trying
>>>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the
>>> AMA
>>>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a
>>> real
>>>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen
>>> in D6  this
>>>> year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>>>> 
>>>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing
>>> against that
>>>> have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go
>>> FAI, then
>>>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can
>>> always fly
>>>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>>>> 
>>>> On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the
>>> storms headed
>>>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>>>> 
>>>> George
>>>> 
>>>> ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and
>>> packed with
>>>>> emotionally based comments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of
>>> highs and
>>>>> lows
>>>>> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to
>>> the NATS
>>>>> and
>>>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking
>>> myself is
>>>>> that
>>>>> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that
>>> it would
>>>>> be.
>>>>> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they
>>> thinking what's
>>>>> good
>>>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
>>>>> 
>>>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing,
>>> this>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second
>>> is to be as
>>>>> competitive as I can.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>>>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them
>>> have fun
>>>>> and
>>>>> be competitive in this sport.
>>>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and
>>> promote their
>>>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?
>>> The short
>>>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a
>>> middle of
>>>>> the
>>>>> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should
>>> have>> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are
>>> fortunate to have
>>>>> a
>>>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit
>>> from having
>>>>> more
>>>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my
>>> vantage point
>>>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the
>>> most
>>>>> influence
>>>>> over the market.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
>>> competitors
>>>>> use
>>>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel
>>> there is
>>>>> an
>>>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a
>>> similar effect.
>>>>> A
>>>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and
>>> Stafford.
>>>>> Many
>>>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here
>>> in the US
>>>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs
>>> especially
>>>>> at
>>>>> the Masters level.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I
>>> choose to
>>>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a
>>> sandbagger
>>>>> but
>>>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the
>> sport.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Mike
>>>>> Hester
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection?>>
>>>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we
>>> call
>>>>> "flying"
>>>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because
>>> he said
>>>>> his
>>>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may
>>> or may not
>>>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice,
>>> skill,
>>>>> the
>>>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's
>>> certainly>> capable of it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and
>>> whether
>>>>> you
>>>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a
>>> masters
>>>>> pilot.
>>>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work
>>> and paying
>>>>> his
>>>>> 
>>>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a
>>> national>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply
>>> don't have. You
>>>>> can't
>>>>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in
>>> competition, not
>>>>> at
>>>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different,
>>> the
>>>>> manuevers
>>>>> are different, etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost
>>> 100%
>>>>> positive
>>>>> 
>>>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way.
>>> FAI is a
>>>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots
>>> complaining>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the
>>> competition, and they like
>>>>> them as people.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason
>>> for that.
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and
>>> does...the
>>>>> same
>>>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>>>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and
>>> thier own
>>>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
>>> decision.>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time
>>> masters pilots have to
>>>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Mike
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection?>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the
>>> class
>>>>>> until
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> won a particular event... which how many people have EVER
>>> won?  Out of
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> many who have competed?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in
>>> Masters wants
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this
>> sport...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Reality is not politically correct.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same
>>> trophy:>> > "Participant"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection?>> >
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Fred,
>>>>>>> The person who made the comment about not moving up until
>>> winning the
>>>>>>> Nats
>>>>>>> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to
>>> the Nats
>>>>>>> finish
>>>>>>> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in
>>> the nation.
>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a
>>> personal goal
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met
>>> Arch, and
>>>>>>> knowing
>>>>>>> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you
>>> blatantly
>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys
>>> Masters in D6
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> would call him that, and those are the people he competes
>>> with on a
>>>>>>> regular
>>>>>>> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation
>>> in Masters
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> than for district championships as it is the highest level
>>> of AMA
>>>>>>> Pattern.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> completely agree with the point someone else made that
>>> stated we
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the
>>> control of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that
>>> forced me to
>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>>>>>>> turnaround
>>>>>>> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
>>> maneuvers>> >> that,
>>>>>>> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
>>> consider
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection?>> >>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't
>>> ever
>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from
>>> Sportsman.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>>> only 2
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline...
>>> and to be
>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I
>>> have
>>>>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll
>>> place
>>>>>>>> DEAD
>>>>>>>> LAST
>>>>>>>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not
>>> being
>>>>>>>> competitive
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for
>>> years so
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> always win...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up
>>> with the
>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even
>>> bothering
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>>> only 2
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> flying.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
>>> personal>> >>> agendas.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection?>> >>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I know Glen.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I
>>> really
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems
>>> to be a
>>>>>>>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that
>>> stepping stone
>>>>>>>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination
>>> all by
>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>> (which it currently is).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot
>>> who does
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I
>>> personally
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves
>>> up to
>>>>>>>>> Masters
>>>>>>>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to
>>> achieve
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given
>>> the option
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and
>>> used for
>>>>>>>>> example only.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they
>>> give me a big
>>>>>>>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk
>>> continually
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was
>>> competition, and if
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do
>>> it better
>>>>>>>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to
>>> go play
>>>>>>>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the
>>> 1st time.
>>>>>>>>> (just ask my wife)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> selection?>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-
>>> discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from
>>> the Masters
>>>>>>>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or
>>> the FAI
>>>>>>>>>> class at any
>>>>>>>>>> contest but not both.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ~Glen
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>>>>>>>>> selection?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered
>>> (yet again)
>>>>>>>>> is:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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