[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --> Personal dilemma, what to do next season

Thu Aug 16 11:11:57 AKDT 2007

Yeah...I saw that after I hit send...that and it went to the list...I wanted 
it to go to the original sender I must not have hit cntl>v to paste the 
original senders address.

Point or not, making a statement like tt in a public forum is not good for 
the sport. I think you would agree.

Pete
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rcpattern at stx.rr.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:04
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --> 
Personal dilemma, what to do next season

> Pete,
>
> Glen did not make this statement.  That statement was made by someone
> defending Glen.  Honestly, I think the guy had a point,
>
> Arch
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net>
> Date: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:02 pm
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --
>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
>> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>> Sportsman's
>> >comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>> Championship. <
>>
>> Glen,
>>
>> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that
>> cause
>> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who
>> a person
>> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to
>> their
>> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express
>> his
>> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>>
>> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman,
>> but
>> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one
>> above does
>> nothing to help the sport.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection? -->
>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>
>>
>> > Glen,
>> >
>> > I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>> Sportsman's
>> > comments keep you from defending your Masters National
>> Championship.  I
>> > love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be
>> in Masters
>> > when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>> >
>> > I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread
>> because I
>> > didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of
>> people trying
>> > to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the
>> AMA
>> > pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a
>> real
>> > problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen
>> in D6  this
>> > year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>> >
>> > I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing
>> against that
>> > have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go
>> FAI, then
>> > please do, but make it your decision and of course you can
>> always fly
>> > Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>> >
>> > On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the
>> storms headed
>> > for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>> >
>> > George
>> >
>> > ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and
>> packed with
>> >> emotionally based comments.
>> >>
>> >> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of
>> highs and
>> >> lows
>> >> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to
>> the NATS
>> >> and
>> >> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking
>> myself is
>> >> that
>> >> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that
>> it would
>> >> be.
>> >> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they
>> thinking what's
>> >> good
>> >> for the pattern community as a whole?
>> >>
>> >> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing,
>> this>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second
>> is to be as
>> >> competitive as I can.
>> >>
>> >> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>> >> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them
>> have fun
>> >> and
>> >> be competitive in this sport.
>> >> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and
>> promote their
>> >> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>> >>
>> >> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?
>> The short
>> >> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a
>> middle of
>> >> the
>> >> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should
>> have>> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are
>> fortunate to have
>> >> a
>> >> large group of national level competitors who would benefit
>> from having
>> >> more
>> >> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my
>> vantage point
>> >> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the
>> most
>> >> influence
>> >> over the market.
>> >>
>> >> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
>> competitors
>> >> use
>> >> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel
>> there is
>> >> an
>> >> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a
>> similar effect.
>> >> A
>> >> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and
>> Stafford.
>> >> Many
>> >> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here
>> in the US
>> >> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs
>> especially
>> >> at
>> >> the Masters level.
>> >>
>> >> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I
>> choose to
>> >> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a
>> sandbagger
>> >> but
>> >> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the
> sport.
>> >>
>> >> ~Glen
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> Mike
>> >> Hester
>> >> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection?>>
>> >> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we
>> call
>> >> "flying"
>> >> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>> >>
>> >> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because
>> he said
>> >> his
>> >> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may
>> or may not
>> >> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice,
>> skill,
>> >> the
>> >> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's
>> certainly>> capable of it.
>> >>
>> >> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and
>> whether
>> >> you
>> >> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a
>> masters
>> >> pilot.
>> >> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work
>> and paying
>> >> his
>> >>
>> >> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a
>> national>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply
>> don't have. You
>> >> can't
>> >> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in
>> competition, not
>> >> at
>> >> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different,
>> the
>> >> manuevers
>> >> are different, etc.
>> >>
>> >> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost
>> 100%
>> >> positive
>> >>
>> >> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way.
>> FAI is a
>> >> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots
>> complaining>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the
>> competition, and they like
>> >> them as people.
>> >>
>> >> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason
>> for that.
>> >> I'd
>> >> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and
>> does...the
>> >> same
>> >> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>> >> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and
>> thier own
>> >> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
>> decision.>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time
>> masters pilots have to
>> >> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>> >>
>> >> -Mike
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection?>>
>> >>
>> >> > Well...
>> >> >
>> >> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the
>> class
>> >> > until
>> >> > he
>> >> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER
>> won?  Out of
>> >> > how
>> >> > many who have competed?
>> >> >
>> >> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>> >> >
>> >> > You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>> >> >
>> >> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in
>> Masters wants
>> >> > to
>> >> > be
>> >> > the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this
> sport...
>> >> >
>> >> > Reality is not politically correct.
>> >> >
>> >> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same
>> trophy:>> > "Participant"
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> > From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection?>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Fred,
>> >> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until
>> winning the
>> >> >> Nats
>> >> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to
>> the Nats
>> >> >> finish
>> >> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in
>> the nation.
>> >> >> He
>> >> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a
>> personal goal
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> has
>> >> >> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met
>> Arch, and
>> >> >> knowing
>> >> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you
>> blatantly
>> >> >> calling
>> >> >> him
>> >> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys
>> Masters in D6
>> >> >> who
>> >> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes
>> with on a
>> >> >> regular
>> >> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation
>> in Masters
>> >> >> other
>> >> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level
>> of AMA
>> >> >> Pattern.
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> completely agree with the point someone else made that
>> stated we
>> >> >> should
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the
>> control of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that
>> forced me to
>> >> >> move
>> >> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>> >> >> turnaround
>> >> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
>> maneuvers>> >> that,
>> >> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
>> consider
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Matt
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection?>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't
>> ever
>> >> >>> expect
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from
>> Sportsman.
>> >> >>> The
>> >> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>> only 2
>> >> >>> others
>> >> >>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline...
>> and to be
>> >> >>> around
>> >> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I
>> have
>> >> >>> learned
>> >> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll
>> place
>> >> >>> DEAD
>> >> >>> LAST
>> >> >>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not
>> being
>> >> >>> competitive
>> >> >>> if
>> >> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for
>> years so
>> >> >>> they
>> >> >>> can
>> >> >>> always win...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up
>> with the
>> >> >>> point
>> >> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even
>> bothering
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
>> only 2
>> >> >>> others
>> >> >>> flying.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
>> personal>> >>> agendas.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>> >> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection?>> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>I know Glen.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I
>> really
>> >> >>>> just
>> >> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems
>> to be a
>> >> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that
>> stepping stone
>> >> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination
>> all by
>> >> >>>> itself
>> >> >>>> (which it currently is).
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot
>> who does
>> >> >>>> not
>> >> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I
>> personally
>> >> >>>> like
>> >> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves
>> up to
>> >> >>>> Masters
>> >> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to
>> achieve
>> >> >>>> an
>> >> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given
>> the option
>> >> >>>> of
>> >> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and
>> used for
>> >> >>>> example only.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they
>> give me a big
>> >> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk
>> continually
>> >> >>>> about
>> >> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was
>> competition, and if
>> >> >>>> you
>> >> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do
>> it better
>> >> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to
>> go play
>> >> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the
>> 1st time.
>> >> >>>> (just ask my wife)
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> -Doug
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>> >> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> selection?>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-
>> discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>> >>>>
>> >> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from
>> the Masters
>> >> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or
>> the FAI
>> >> >>>>> class at any
>> >> >>>>> contest but not both.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> ~Glen
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>> Behalf Of
>> >> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>> >> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>> >> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>> >> >>>>> selection?
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered
>> (yet again)
>> >> >>>> is:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> -Doug
>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
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