[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
rcpattern at stx.rr.com
rcpattern at stx.rr.com
Thu Aug 16 11:05:51 AKDT 2007
Pete,
Glen did not make this statement. That statement was made by someone
defending Glen. Honestly, I think the guy had a point,
Arch
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net>
Date: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:02 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? --
> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
> Sportsman's
> >comments keep you from defending your Masters National
> Championship. <
>
> Glen,
>
> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that
> cause
> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who
> a person
> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to
> their
> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express
> his
> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>
> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman,
> but
> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one
> above does
> nothing to help the sport.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Pete
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection? -->
> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
>
> > Glen,
> >
> > I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
> Sportsman's
> > comments keep you from defending your Masters National
> Championship. I
> > love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be
> in Masters
> > when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
> >
> > I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread
> because I
> > didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of
> people trying
> > to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Masters is the top of the
> AMA
> > pyramid and FAI is the international competition. There isn't a
> real
> > problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen
> in D6 this
> > year. So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
> >
> > I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing
> against that
> > have a problem with you defending your title! If you want to go
> FAI, then
> > please do, but make it your decision and of course you can
> always fly
> > Masters AND FAI at different contests.
> >
> > On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the
> storms headed
> > for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
> >
> > George
> >
> > ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
> >> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and
> packed with
> >> emotionally based comments.
> >>
> >> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of
> highs and
> >> lows
> >> on what I should do next. The rules state that I can return to
> the NATS
> >> and
> >> defend my National Championship if I so desire. I'm asking
> myself is
> >> that
> >> such a bad thing. Well a few have voiced their opinions that
> it would
> >> be.
> >> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they
> thinking what's
> >> good
> >> for the pattern community as a whole?
> >>
> >> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing,
> this>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner. Second
> is to be as
> >> competitive as I can.
> >>
> >> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
> >> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them
> have fun
> >> and
> >> be competitive in this sport.
> >> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and
> promote their
> >> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
> >>
> >> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?
> The short
> >> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a
> middle of
> >> the
> >> pack FAI competitor? IMHO top level Masters competitors should
> have>> influence on equipments trends. Here in the US we are
> fortunate to have
> >> a
> >> large group of national level competitors who would benefit
> from having
> >> more
> >> options and diversity in their equipment choices. From my
> vantage point
> >> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the
> most
> >> influence
> >> over the market.
> >>
> >> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
> competitors
> >> use
> >> to win their respective National events or the Worlds. I feel
> there is
> >> an
> >> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a
> similar effect.
> >> A
> >> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and
> Stafford.
> >> Many
> >> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here
> in the US
> >> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs
> especially
> >> at
> >> the Masters level.
> >>
> >> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I
> choose to
> >> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a
> sandbagger
> >> but
> >> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the
sport.
> >>
> >> ~Glen
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Mike
> >> Hester
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?>>
> >> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we
> call
> >> "flying"
> >> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
> >>
> >> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because
> he said
> >> his
> >> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may
> or may not
> >> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice,
> skill,
> >> the
> >> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's
> certainly>> capable of it.
> >>
> >> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and
> whether
> >> you
> >> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a
> masters
> >> pilot.
> >> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work
> and paying
> >> his
> >>
> >> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a
> national>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply
> don't have. You
> >> can't
> >> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in
> competition, not
> >> at
> >> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different,
> the
> >> manuevers
> >> are different, etc.
> >>
> >> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost
> 100%
> >> positive
> >>
> >> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way.
> FAI is a
> >> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots
> complaining>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the
> competition, and they like
> >> them as people.
> >>
> >> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason
> for that.
> >> I'd
> >> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and
> does...the
> >> same
> >> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
> >> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and
> thier own
> >> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
> decision.>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time
> masters pilots have to
> >> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
> >>
> >> -Mike
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?>>
> >>
> >> > Well...
> >> >
> >> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the
> class
> >> > until
> >> > he
> >> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER
> won? Out of
> >> > how
> >> > many who have competed?
> >> >
> >> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
> >> >
> >> > You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
> >> >
> >> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in
> Masters wants
> >> > to
> >> > be
> >> > the best too. Most will NEVER make it.
> >> >
> >> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this
sport...
> >> >
> >> > Reality is not politically correct.
> >> >
> >> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same
> trophy:>> > "Participant"
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?>> >
> >> >
> >> >> Fred,
> >> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until
> winning the
> >> >> Nats
> >> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to
> the Nats
> >> >> finish
> >> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in
> the nation.
> >> >> He
> >> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a
> personal goal
> >> >> he
> >> >> has
> >> >> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met
> Arch, and
> >> >> knowing
> >> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you
> blatantly
> >> >> calling
> >> >> him
> >> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys
> Masters in D6
> >> >> who
> >> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes
> with on a
> >> >> regular
> >> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation
> in Masters
> >> >> other
> >> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level
> of AMA
> >> >> Pattern.
> >> >> I
> >> >> completely agree with the point someone else made that
> stated we
> >> >> should
> >> >> not
> >> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the
> control of
> >> >> the
> >> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that
> forced me to
> >> >> move
> >> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
> >> >> turnaround
> >> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
> maneuvers>> >> that,
> >> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
> consider
> >> >> to
> >> >> be
> >> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
> >> >>
> >> >> Matt
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?>> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win... I don't
> ever
> >> >>> expect
> >> >>> to
> >> >>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from
> Sportsman.
> >> >>> The
> >> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
> only 2
> >> >>> others
> >> >>> flying. I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline...
> and to be
> >> >>> around
> >> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I
> have
> >> >>> learned
> >> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll
> place
> >> >>> DEAD
> >> >>> LAST
> >> >>> FOREVER. I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not
> being
> >> >>> competitive
> >> >>> if
> >> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for
> years so
> >> >>> they
> >> >>> can
> >> >>> always win...
> >> >>>
> >> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up
> with the
> >> >>> point
> >> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger. (not even
> bothering
> >> >>> to
> >> >>> look up who made the referenced post...)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's
> only 2
> >> >>> others
> >> >>> flying.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
> personal>> >>> agendas.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
> >> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?>> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>I know Glen.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I
> really
> >> >>>> just
> >> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems
> to be a
> >> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that
> stepping stone
> >> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination
> all by
> >> >>>> itself
> >> >>>> (which it currently is).
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot
> who does
> >> >>>> not
> >> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I
> personally
> >> >>>> like
> >> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves
> up to
> >> >>>> Masters
> >> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to
> achieve
> >> >>>> an
> >> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given
> the option
> >> >>>> of
> >> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and
> used for
> >> >>>> example only.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they
> give me a big
> >> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk
> continually
> >> >>>> about
> >> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was
> competition, and if
> >> >>>> you
> >> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do
> it better
> >> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to
> go play
> >> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the
> 1st time.
> >> >>>> (just ask my wife)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> -Doug
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
> >> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> selection?>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-
> discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>> >>>>
> >> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from
> the Masters
> >> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or
> the FAI
> >> >>>>> class at any
> >> >>>>> contest but not both.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ~Glen
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
> Behalf Of
> >> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
> >> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
> >> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
> >> >>>>> selection?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered
> (yet again)
> >> >>>> is:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -Doug
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
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