[NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question -verticalsegments

Wed Oct 18 08:12:47 AKDT 2006

RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question - verticalsegmentsI agree with Glen, the general rules must be followed as well as the specific.  Each maneuver should not require each small detail be described.  Most are already over-defined causing many to not read the regs.  Done properly, the general section should be large and the detail small.  All centered maneuvers are generally symetrical around center.  A top hat at center should have all line lengths equal.  A turnaround top hat may have all line lengths different for positioning and altitude adjustment.  Same for stall turns at center and turnaround stall turns.  All the statement "The length of the vertical segments is not a judging criteria" means is the performance of the model in vertical is not a grading criteria.  

In general, centered maneuvers that appear to be symetrical should be symetrical.  Centered maneuvers that appear to begin and end at the same altitude should, in fact, begin and end at the same altitude.  The figure "M" is a symetrical maneuver around center with first roll directional optional, stall turn direction optional,  inverted through the bottom half loop, roll direction optional on the second vertical, vertical line lenght the same as the first vertical, stall turn direction optional, upright exit with overall height of the maneuver optional and all radii the same.  Much of this is stated in the maneuver description but what is not specificed is: radii must be the same, rolls must be in the center of the lines, the stall turn has a maximum pivot radius of 1/2 wingspan, the roll rates are the same, etc... That's the general section and it applies.

Don
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Glen Watson 
  To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:14 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question -verticalsegments

  Keith,

  Here is an interesting passage from the rule book page 77 regarding lines within a maneuver.

  "All lines within a maneuver have a beginning and end which define their length. The length of a line should only be graded when a maneuver contains several lines with a given relationship, as in a square loop. Unequal or misrelated lines should be downgraded according to the severity of the defect. One (1) point is subtracted for a reasonable difference. More points are subtracted for greater differences."

  My take away is the maneuver description implies the vertical line length is not a judge-able item however since there are two vertical lines their length must be of the same reasonable length.

  I for one am beginning to understand the importance of understanding not just the individual maneuver description but also the general descriptions and definitions the rule book provides like the above example.

  Glen

  -----Original Message-----

  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Black

  Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:13 AM

  To: NSRCA Mailing List

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question - verticalsegments

  Now that we're breaking this down, I'd like some clarification on the

  section of the rule below that states:

  "The length of the vertical segments is not a judging criteria."

  In the strictest translation of this sentence I would say that this means

  that the two stall turns do not need to be the same height, however, this

  seems inconsistent will all other centered maneuvers where two halves of an

  object do have to match in size.

  A looser translation could be that the intention of this verbiage is to

  point out that a shorter 'M' should score as well as a taller 'M', but

  assumes that both sides should be the same height (which isn't stated

  anywhere).

  Unless otherwise clarified, I'd have to deduce that indeed the two stall

  turns don't have to be the same height.

  Keith Black

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: "Glen Watson" <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>

  To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 12:10 PM

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question

  Below is the Figure M description from page 79-80 of the current AMA rule

  book...Note the statement regarding rolls and stall turn direction are

  pilot's option...I then found this statement "Edit page 79-80 Figure M with

  ¼ or ½ rolls" to include ¾ roll options" on the NSRCA page under:

  http://nsrca.org/competition/judging/Patterns2007

  Figure M with 1/4 or 1/2 Rolls: Model pulls up into one-quarter (1/4) loop

  to a vertical track, hesitates then performs prescribed roll, hesitates then

  executes a stall turn through 180 degrees, hesitates, performs

  prescribed roll, hesitates then executes one-half (1/2) outside loop to

  vertical track, hesitates, performs prescribed roll, hesitates, executes a

  stall turn through 180 degrees, hesitates, performs prescribed roll,

  hesitates then recovers with another one-quarter (1/4) loop to level flight.

  Direction of rolls and stall turns are pilot's option. The length of the

  vertical segments is not a judging criteria.

  Downgrades:

  1. Model not vertical at start and finish of rolls

  and stall turns.

  2. Stall turns not exactly 180 degrees.

  3. Model does not execute prescribed rolls.

  4. Rolls not centered in vertical lines.

  5. Bottom of outside half loop not at same altitude

  as entry and exit.

  Regards,

  Glen

  -----Original Message-----

  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org

  [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Budd

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:20 AM

  To: NSRCA Mailing List

  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question

  Hi Jim,

  Unless the maneuver has changed from 15 years ago all the rolls have

  to be in the same direction, resulting in one stall turn being

  canopy-facing you and the other being belly-facing you (your choice

  as to which comes first).  It's a tough maneuver, especially when the

  wind is blowing other than down the runway.

  Jerry

  >Bob

  >  My memory crutch is,when flying from left to right, the 1st 2 roll

  >directions are left-left and 2nd 2 roll directions are right-right.

  >When flying from the right to left,the 1st 2 roll directions are

  right-right

  >and 2nd 2 roll directions are left-left.

  >Like Arch said the center half  loop is inverted in both cases.

  >Lotsa a upside down.

  >

  >Jim Ivey

  >

  >----- Original Message -----

  >From: "Archie Stafford" <rcpattern at stx.rr.com>

  >To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

  >Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:11 AM

  >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question

  >

  >

  >>  Bob,

  >>

  >>  It has to be inverted.  The direction of roll must be the same on every

  >3/4

  >>  roll therefore you end up inverted across the middle.

  >>

  >>  Arch

  >>

  >>  -----Original Message-----

  >>  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org

  >>  [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane

  >>  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:53 AM

  >>  To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

  >>  Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question

  >>

  >>  OK, I'm finally try to fly this thing with a pencil . . . . . .    one

  >>  question I have (so far) is the 1/2 loop between the two stall turns in

  >the

  >>  figure M: Does it matter if it is an inside or outside half loop?  The

  >>  aresti diagram posted on Flying Giants shows it as an outside half loop

  >with

  >>  no option.  Thanks.

  >>

  >>  Bob Kane

  >>  getterflash at yahoo.com

  >>

  >>

  >>

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  -- 

  ___________

  Jerry Budd

  Budd Engineering

  (661) 722-5669 Voice/Fax

  (661) 435-0358 Cell Phone

  mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com

  http://www.buddengineering.com

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