[NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction scoring
Earl Haury
ehaury at houston.rr.com
Mon Oct 2 11:45:34 AKDT 2006
I'm liking this conversation! For three + decades I've been hearing "you draw nice lines and fly good geometry, but you need to get some rhythm to make it look smoother". Never have had rhythm in anything - don't know what "smoothness" is supposed to be. After searching, I still haven't found smoothness (other than some liquid in Lynchburg Tennessee) - hope the pattern version comes soon, as I'm losing the geometry!
I do know that I score a crisp maneuver with quick rolls the same as a soft maneuver with slow rolls the same when done properly. Likewise - equal errors get equal downgrades. So - if the lines are straight - the rolls equal & centered - the radii the same - and all in the right place and size - what's smoothness? Maybe size and abruptness for the position can factor in when really off - when someone flies with little wiggles & jerks that don't affect track - that isn't smooth. So - maybe there can be some definitions written - but we sure don't have any.
OTOH - a soft style with slower rolls may provide a pilot with more time to correctly execute the maneuver. Crisp & quick leaves no room for error. The softer style gives the judge more time to critique, the crisp limits the time but shows the errors (and there's no time to fix them "gracefully"). Different opportunities for error in each. So - either "style" flown correctly should score the same shouldn't they?
I would challenge any judge who may be impressed with "smoothness" to take a good look at precision and geometry, and to remember that there's no "bonus" (as in overlooking errors - or rounding up) for smoothness - only a downgrade for lack of (as in roughness - coarseness - jerky). Hmmm - there may be a relationship between precision and smoothness.
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: DaveL322 at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction scoring
John,
I couldn't agree more, and I'd like to see "smoothness and gracefullness" completely removed as a judging criteria as no one has ever been able to quantify what the downgrade should be, or how a geometrically perfect maneuver can be outscored by a more "graceful" maneuver.
Standing by with a bucket of water...
Regards,
Dave Lockhart
DaveL322 at comcast.net
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell at earthlink.net>
For that reason I believe the word "Graceful" should be removed from the rule book in every instance. Even dictionaries have trouble defining "Graceful".
That ought to draw a little fire.
John Ferrell W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US
----- Original Message -----
From: DaveL322 at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction scoring
Many good points already made, and good technical discussions presented.
The distinction between textbook technical judging and non-textbook "impression" judging will always exist, and I think (as most if not all) we should strive to eliminate the impression judging whenever possible. For that reason, I would opposed to an "artistic" or "overall" flight score which could be an opening for a very subjective score which is markedly contrasting to the objective scoring/goal on which pattern is based. It takes a lot of effort make a well designed schedule which is technically well executed look unappealing.
Regards,
Dave Lockhart
DaveL322 at comcast.net
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Rcmaster199 at aol.com
To Ed's point, If the model flies a technically correct maneuver in heavy wind, few judges are desciplined enough to really judge only the technical merit, as per the book. Most will also see the strange attitudes the model must endure even if track was correct, particularly when properly compensating for said wind, and take off points for smoothness and grace.
Throw in slower flight which is the present norm especially with e-flight, and the issue can get exacerbated. Faster flight regime in heavy wind will tend to mask wind compensation.
There have been many superb flights that were wind corrected extremely well to deserved high scores. The Nats is often the place since it is usually so windy and demands some superb performances.
However, two stick out in my mind, performed in relatively obscure local contests.... Ivan Kristensen in Jacksonville a bunch of years ago, and Pete Collinson in Ocala just a couple years ago. Both contests were held early in the season and anyone who has spent any time in Florida will know how windy the early season can be there.
Both explained that they essentially "flew the wind". Ivan added that he flew "b..ls to the wall...". Pete did also except his model was set-up for only moderately fast speed, which caused the perennial F3A winner in FLA at the time to exclaim "...well, if you're gonna get beat, might as well be by the best.."
Judging Pattern fairly and consistently is tough needless to say, particularly in difficult conditions. To Earl's point, Technical Merit and Artistic Merit are combined in our present mode of judging. Perhaps we may want to separate them, as done in other similar sports.
Matt
In a message dated 9/30/2006 7:04:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, ehaury at houston.rr.com writes:
Ed
I'll always score the technically correct higher!!
As a judge I just am amazed at the folks that will wind correct properly on uplines and simply disregard it on downlines - totally destroying a good score. Unfortunately - some judges still can't get past the ugly, the only sure way around this is to score with some sort of machine.
It takes a lot of practice to develop a "feel" for the wind so as to recognize just what / how much to compensate. Often the pilot requires several maneuvers to get this feel in a competition flight - the judges instantly see the results. The latter may be why some feel wind corrected maneuvers don't score well - it's easy for the judge to see and hard to fly correctly.
How about some technical discussion of wind correcting - we're drawing maneuvers in a moving medium (air) that affects the trajectory of our machine (airplane). Does speed really help - other than shortening the time exposure? Is slower better - gives more time to correctly apply thrust vector "against" the wind? Uplines take some (x) power in calm, additional power is needed for the wind vector (y), how much y to maintain x in calm? Steve's point - downlines are affected by the same wind as uplines, gravity usually is used for x - won't y thrust (adding power) improve downline attitude in wind? Can power be added for y without helping gravity too much (downline speed)?
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Deaver
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
Thanx Ken, but which would you score higher?? I know what we are supposed to do, but that is the jist of my post.
Ed
Ken Thompson <mrandmrst at comcast.net> wrote:
Hard to ignore "ugly", but you need to judge the "track"
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Deaver
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
Hey everyone. While the season is winding down, Don Ramsey and I had an interesting discussion this past weekend. Am wondering what the general consensus is.
First, let me state, judges are human and I understand that. Also, many judges don't know the exact wording of many rules, I understant that also.
Soooo
Will a pilot score higher if they follow the letter of the law and wind correct perfectly, but fly an ugly manuever, or wind correct a little and let the plane look "prettier" in a manuever?????
Lets use the first maneuver in the Master's sequence after entering the box. Stall turn 1 1/4 rolls up, 3/4 rolls down exit inverted. On a strong wind day, not pulling to vertical to maintain the line doesn't look to bad (we expect that) the 1 1/4 rolls in centered, looking good, appropriate rudder is given to maintain a straight vertical line (again expected and usually doesn't require much as we are at full throttle), the stall goes off without a hitch, but do to lack of airspeed we cant the fuse and hold rudder into the wind letting the fuse lean at a 45degree angle to maintain a straight line (this is the part I'm curious about) until the 3/4 roll and using a little down elevator to hold the line after the roll (again expected but not ugly)
Everything about this manuever is done and doesn't detract from the overall appearance of the manuever except the down line after the stall, which is simply "UGLY"
Just curious what everyone says. Again, I know what the rules say, and am not interested in a rule book interpretation, but what do you think about scoring better vs worse???
Thanx
ed
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