[NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency

Mon Nov 20 05:03:11 AKST 2006

Jim,
ditto.ditto.  I agree with your points.  The PACSS judging program supports this.  All we have to do is type the judges initials instead of their ID on the round entry form.  I've checked this with the author Gene.

Getting a low scoring round after flying what one thinks was a very well flown round is fine, in that one learns there were errors.  But to have the opportunity to learn what is specifically the errors we can not see increases the enjoyment tremendously be turning grousing into resolve to work on the weakness.

Based on the feedback I've gotten I think the F3A sporting code only requires score posting,but not judge identity transparency.  I disagree with this and clearly you do to.  It would be nice to see local contests where this little mystery was removed.

--Lance

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Woodward 
  To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' 
  Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:09 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency

  I think posting judges names along with the scores is more than a fair idea and goes a long way toward increasing the transparency at a contest.  When you increase the transparency, the "pilots" have a better understanding and good time.  When the pilots are happy, they come back to the contests and maybe bring someone with them.  If you notice, after a contest when our friend who did not makes it calls and asks, ". how was the contest," the next question is ". how was the judging."  Judging, or problems with judging, is such an intrinsic part of the pattern experience that you can't separate it from the "description" of how the contest went.

    1.. What is interesting is that the "flight" takes place in a public forum - anyone can see it.  As we watch it, more often or not it is watched in small groups which include fellow class-competitors, or more experienced pilots pointing out to younger pilots errors to look out for.   
    2.. The judges for the round are public information.  IE - you can look out on the flight line and see who is judging 
    3.. The pilot for the round is public information.  IE - you can look out on the flight line and see who is flying.   

  Yet, "who" and "how" the scores were given remains a small mystery.  A lot of folks do not want to be known as the guy who goes to the CD and asks questions about the scoring and such.  Or, is seen by their fellow competitors as being the CD hound.  

  Judge Training:  Most judge training takes place in practice and at contests.  There is no better forum for judge training than the contest environment.  When the tear sheets are posted for each round with judge identification, you can go and ask ". I watched that and wondered why you gave it xyz score."  This is an incredibly valuable moment when all of us are gathered we do more to get the most out of it.  As it stands, after the round is posted the next comment is, ". well, I guess the judges didn't catch that zero.. (and similar comments)."  These conversations are already taking place at the contest.  Posting the tear sheets for everyone would bring these conversations into the open as a positive element of the experience, and not add to the conspiracy theorists ammunition (every district has a prime person/competitor who is a judging conspiracy theorists).  

  Last thing, there are two judges for every 1 pilot, thus, there is 100% more judging work taking place than piloting work.  We are there to fly, but the performance of the judges is every bit on display as the performance of the pilot.  In the US we also tally the judges performance and keep track of them on the national scene.  Posting the tear sheets with judges names would help this effort, allow for a GREAT training tool to be available to the CD and fellow pilots, and become a "self-correcting-tool" to those persons who to judge with bias (intentionally or not).  As a judge, at the end of the round it would be great to know how my scores compared to the other judge.  Each judge could discuss the round.  When the tear sheets are posted in the open, it will "promote" this conversation and I believe, help on many levels.  Also, if you as a judge know the scores and names will be posted after a round, I bet a lot of judge-lazy behavior will go away, like when they/we have our head down and write scores, thus missing 30% or more of maneuvers.

  Just some ideas.

  Jim W.

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  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Wayne
  Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:37 PM
  To: NSRCA Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency

  Fred,

  my point is post them...not leave loose tear sheets on a table for pilots to take away from the table. This has been the practice at the NATS. They need to be posted in some way. Not just tossed as loose sheets for the wind and pilots to remove from the public view

  That is all my point was. I had a conversation with an FAI pilot back after the NATS and he has been advocating this the past 3 years yet still not happening.

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Fred Huber 

    To: NSRCA Mailing List 

    Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:13 PM

    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency

    To me, "public" can be debated somewhat....  

    Its probably adequate to post them on a table where anyone WHO WANTS TO can see them.  

    All the Pattern contests I have been to, the scores have been taped to a table where anyone who wanted to look had access.  Good enough.  Don't make it harder than it has to be.

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Wayne 

      To: NSRCA Mailing List 

      Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:21 PM

      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency

      Public is not left on a table....Public is posted for the world to see.

      check out the awesome job done by the Swiss at the last Euro Champs. Too bad we in the USA with more pattern flyers than anywhere else can't get with the program.

      http://www.em06.ch/ranking_preliminary.asp

      Wayne

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: Lance Van Nostrand 

        To: NSRCA Mailing List 

        Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM

        Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency

        To all rule-meisters,

        I know there are some on this list that have deep insight into the intent and history of the F3A sporting code.  I hope to either get a solid answer or pointed in the right direction.  This is not an idle request.

        Part 5.1.8 Marking - last sentence 

        The scores given by each judge for each competitor shall be made public at the end of each round of competition.

        What level of transparency is mandated?  Is it enough to report the scores from judge 1-4 or is it expected that the identity of the judge be known as well?

        --Lance

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