[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

[Lance Van Nostrand]

1/2 pt S&G

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8


>I agree that the downgrade is lenient, this didn't escape my attention.
> However, I'm not sure by what other criteria/rule one would downgrade a 
> loss
> of altitude.  Perhaps Don could help here.
>
> Keep in mind that the 15 foot drop you mention may not appear as much of a
> drop depending on the height of the plane and box positioning during the
> drop. I'll be honest, right or wrong, if I'm in the chair and I see a
> noticeable drop I'll take 1/2 point, if it's really obvious drop I'd take 
> 1
> pt. Maybe I'm wrong, this is a good time to set me straight and level  ;-) 
> .
>
> OK Lance, so if you're judging Sportsman and you see the plane drop 20 
> feet
> on the straight flight out as it flies from one end of the box to the 
> other,
> how would you score it. By your definition seems like you have to give it 
> a
> 10 since the error would only be around 3 to 4 degrees.
>
> Keith Black
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>
>
>> I don't think the rules support your claim that the 15m entry/exit is a
>> minimum.  I think you have just made up your own rule to downgrade at 1
>> point per 15.  However, this is very lenient downgrading because to get a
> 1
>> point downgrade by descending or ascending at 15 degrees, over a 100m
>> distance, the plane would change altitude by 77 ft.  A pilot changing
>> altitude by 15 ft or so would only be making a 3 degree error.  (note: 
>> the
>> box width at 150 meters is 600 meters).
>>
>> Therefore, if I  lose 15 ft of altitude as I fly from the end of the
> reverse
>> cuban into the stall turn (manuvers 1 and 2) this should hardly register
> as
>> a downgrade.
>>
>> --Lance
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>
>>
>> >I agree with Don's description on the maneuver, this makes perfect sense
> to
>> > me. However, I really don't think it matters if you visualize the 
>> > center
>> > or
>> > the first corner as the start because IMO any deviation in track,
> altitude
>> > change or wing bobble approaching the eight, whether 15 m or greater
> from
>> > the theoretical start of the eight is grounds for downgrade.
>> >
>> > This thinking goes to what Lance was discussing as "no man's land". I'm
>> > not
>> > sure there is such a thing, I've always thought of the 15 m entry line
> as
>> > a
>> > minimum.
>> >
>> > Let's take an example. A pilot comes out of the Humpty Bump prior to 
>> > the
>> > figure eight and draws a 15 m straight line. Then they start loosing
>> > altitude and continue dropping until 15 m before center (Lance's
>> > theoretical
>> > no man's land). I for one would deduct points from the eight based on
> the
>> > 15
>> > degree rule. I don't think the spirit of the rules is "anything goes",
> or
>> > "it's not so bad" as long as it's not 15 m before a maneuver starts. If
>> > one
>> > does score this way then the pilot that keeps a perfect line between
> these
>> > two maneuvers will not be rewarded for doing a better job.
>> >
>> > Keith Black
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:07 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >
>> >
>> >> Don,
>> >>
>> >> Since it is the point of this list to be nitpicky, let me say that 
>> >> when
>> > the
>> >> plane is inverted at center it is at a point that it will never return
>> >> to,
>> >> therefore the actual center can not be the start of the manuver.
>> >> Granted,
>> >> the center is part of the straight line that begins and ends all
>> >> manuvers,
>> >> but it is not part of the actual figure 8.  So to be complete, judging
>> >> starts 15m before the exit of the final radius and ends 15m after this
>> >> point. This encompases the center but is not the actual beginning and
>> >> ending.
>> >>
>> >> As for Stuart's comment, I think any downgrade applied to what the
>> > airplane
>> >> does when it is in "no man's land" falls in the smoothness and
>> > Gracefulness
>> >> category and should be minimal.  ("no man's land" exists between some
>> >> manuvers that are far apart where the prior manuver and its 15m exit
> line
>> >> end, but there is a long space before the 15m entry line of the next
>> >> manuver.)
>> >>
>> >> --Lance
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Don Ramsey (CoxNet)" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:40 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Lance,
>> >> >
>> >> > I believe it starts at center. Straight line before center and start
> at
>> >> > center.  The reason I say that is rule 14.1 which says "Each time 
>> >> > the
>> >> > model
>> >> > passes before the judges, a maneuver is executed, except after
> takeoff
>> > and
>> >> > landing."  Of course, some maneuvers start before center as the slow
>> > roll,
>> >> > etc. As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.
>> >> >
>> >> > Don
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> > From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:16 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Lance
>> >> >> You will have to have a entry line before the push to vertical past
>> >> >> center.This is where I think it starts... at the start of the entry
>> > line.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jim Ivey
>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
>> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:51 PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> OK,so where does the manuver begin and end?  At center, the radius
>> > after
>> >> >>> center, at the first corner initiation?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --Lance
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >>> From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>> >> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:06 PM
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> > Jason
>> >> >>> > The way we are flying the 8 is enter inverted and 1st loop
>> >> >>> > (outside)
>> >> >>> > to
>> >> >>> > the
>> >> >>> > right of center and next (inside) loop to the left of center.The
>> > first
>> >> >>> > loop
>> >> >>> > is outside loop and 1st vertical segment starts past center.Of
>> > course
>> >> >> swap
>> >> >>> > left and right for opposite flying direction.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Jim Ivey
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >>> > From: "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
>> >> >>> > To: "NSRCA" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:08 PM
>> >> >>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >> Hi All,
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Does the Square horizontal 8 start at center or just past
> center?
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Regards,
>> >> >>> >> Jason
>> >> >>> >> www.jasonshulman.com
>> >> >>> >> www.shulmanaviation.com
>> >> >>> >> www.composite-arf.com
>> >> >>> >> -- 
>> >> >>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> >> >>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> >>> >> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 - Release Date:
>> >> >>> >> 11/10/2006
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> >> >>> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> >>> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> >> >>> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> >>> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> >> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> >> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> >> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion