[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

Keith Black tkeithblack at gmail.com
Mon Nov 13 19:55:02 AKST 2006 

I completely disagree with you, this is not a S&G issue. In my example I
never said the drop in altitude wasn't smooth and graceful. In fact, it may
well have been the most graceful and smooth loss of altitude ever, but it
still gets a downgrade based on geometry.

New example:

A pilot gets blown way too far in, so on the long line from the end of the
humpty to the square eight the pilot very smoothly and gracefully blends in
rudder and moves the plane out about 75 yards. Fifteen meters prior to
center this crafty flier adjusts his track and straightens the track out.
You, however, being the attentive judge that you are notice this sneaky
adjustment and judge it how? And on what grounds?

For me it's easy, you can't both fly a parallel track to the flight line and
adjust your distance from the flight line by 75 meters, that's bad geometry.
Seems we teach the Sportsman this lesson in the two straight flight
segments. For a 75 meter adjustment I'd probably take 1 point, maybe more
depending on how dramatic the adjustment in distance looked.

"But he straightened out 15 meters before the start of the square", you say,
"what about the 'no man's land'.

"Don't care", I say, "we fly a sequence, not a lot of individual maneuvers.
There is no 'no man's land'."

Again I'm more than willing to change the way I judge if Don or the judging
committee explain that I'm wrong, after all, what do I know.

Keith Black


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8


> 1/2 pt S&G
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>
>
> >I agree that the downgrade is lenient, this didn't escape my attention.
> > However, I'm not sure by what other criteria/rule one would downgrade a
> > loss
> > of altitude.  Perhaps Don could help here.
> >
> > Keep in mind that the 15 foot drop you mention may not appear as much of
a
> > drop depending on the height of the plane and box positioning during the
> > drop. I'll be honest, right or wrong, if I'm in the chair and I see a
> > noticeable drop I'll take 1/2 point, if it's really obvious drop I'd
take
> > 1
> > pt. Maybe I'm wrong, this is a good time to set me straight and level
;-)
> > .
> >
> > OK Lance, so if you're judging Sportsman and you see the plane drop 20
> > feet
> > on the straight flight out as it flies from one end of the box to the
> > other,
> > how would you score it. By your definition seems like you have to give
it
> > a
> > 10 since the error would only be around 3 to 4 degrees.
> >
> > Keith Black
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >
> >
> >> I don't think the rules support your claim that the 15m entry/exit is a
> >> minimum.  I think you have just made up your own rule to downgrade at 1
> >> point per 15.  However, this is very lenient downgrading because to get
a
> > 1
> >> point downgrade by descending or ascending at 15 degrees, over a 100m
> >> distance, the plane would change altitude by 77 ft.  A pilot changing
> >> altitude by 15 ft or so would only be making a 3 degree error.  (note:
> >> the
> >> box width at 150 meters is 600 meters).
> >>
> >> Therefore, if I  lose 15 ft of altitude as I fly from the end of the
> > reverse
> >> cuban into the stall turn (manuvers 1 and 2) this should hardly
register
> > as
> >> a downgrade.
> >>
> >> --Lance
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:40 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >>
> >>
> >> >I agree with Don's description on the maneuver, this makes perfect
sense
> > to
> >> > me. However, I really don't think it matters if you visualize the
> >> > center
> >> > or
> >> > the first corner as the start because IMO any deviation in track,
> > altitude
> >> > change or wing bobble approaching the eight, whether 15 m or greater
> > from
> >> > the theoretical start of the eight is grounds for downgrade.
> >> >
> >> > This thinking goes to what Lance was discussing as "no man's land".
I'm
> >> > not
> >> > sure there is such a thing, I've always thought of the 15 m entry
line
> > as
> >> > a
> >> > minimum.
> >> >
> >> > Let's take an example. A pilot comes out of the Humpty Bump prior to
> >> > the
> >> > figure eight and draws a 15 m straight line. Then they start loosing
> >> > altitude and continue dropping until 15 m before center (Lance's
> >> > theoretical
> >> > no man's land). I for one would deduct points from the eight based on
> > the
> >> > 15
> >> > degree rule. I don't think the spirit of the rules is "anything
goes",
> > or
> >> > "it's not so bad" as long as it's not 15 m before a maneuver starts.
If
> >> > one
> >> > does score this way then the pilot that keeps a perfect line between
> > these
> >> > two maneuvers will not be rewarded for doing a better job.
> >> >
> >> > Keith Black
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:07 AM
> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Don,
> >> >>
> >> >> Since it is the point of this list to be nitpicky, let me say that
> >> >> when
> >> > the
> >> >> plane is inverted at center it is at a point that it will never
return
> >> >> to,
> >> >> therefore the actual center can not be the start of the manuver.
> >> >> Granted,
> >> >> the center is part of the straight line that begins and ends all
> >> >> manuvers,
> >> >> but it is not part of the actual figure 8.  So to be complete,
judging
> >> >> starts 15m before the exit of the final radius and ends 15m after
this
> >> >> point. This encompases the center but is not the actual beginning
and
> >> >> ending.
> >> >>
> >> >> As for Stuart's comment, I think any downgrade applied to what the
> >> > airplane
> >> >> does when it is in "no man's land" falls in the smoothness and
> >> > Gracefulness
> >> >> category and should be minimal.  ("no man's land" exists between
some
> >> >> manuvers that are far apart where the prior manuver and its 15m exit
> > line
> >> >> end, but there is a long space before the 15m entry line of the next
> >> >> manuver.)
> >> >>
> >> >> --Lance
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >> From: "Don Ramsey (CoxNet)" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:40 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Lance,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I believe it starts at center. Straight line before center and
start
> > at
> >> >> > center.  The reason I say that is rule 14.1 which says "Each time
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > model
> >> >> > passes before the judges, a maneuver is executed, except after
> > takeoff
> >> > and
> >> >> > landing."  Of course, some maneuvers start before center as the
slow
> >> > roll,
> >> >> > etc. As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Don
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >> > From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
> >> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:16 PM
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Lance
> >> >> >> You will have to have a entry line before the push to vertical
past
> >> >> >> center.This is where I think it starts... at the start of the
entry
> >> > line.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Jim Ivey
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >> >> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> >> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:51 PM
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> OK,so where does the manuver begin and end?  At center, the
radius
> >> > after
> >> >> >>> center, at the first corner initiation?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> --Lance
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >> >>> From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
> >> >> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:06 PM
> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> > Jason
> >> >> >>> > The way we are flying the 8 is enter inverted and 1st loop
> >> >> >>> > (outside)
> >> >> >>> > to
> >> >> >>> > the
> >> >> >>> > right of center and next (inside) loop to the left of
center.The
> >> > first
> >> >> >>> > loop
> >> >> >>> > is outside loop and 1st vertical segment starts past center.Of
> >> > course
> >> >> >> swap
> >> >> >>> > left and right for opposite flying direction.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Jim Ivey
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >> >>> > From: "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
> >> >> >>> > To: "NSRCA" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:08 PM
> >> >> >>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> >> Hi All,
> >> >> >>> >>
> >> >> >>> >> Does the Square horizontal 8 start at center or just past
> > center?
> >> >> >>> >>
> >> >> >>> >> Regards,
> >> >> >>> >> Jason
> >> >> >>> >> www.jasonshulman.com
> >> >> >>> >> www.shulmanaviation.com
> >> >> >>> >> www.composite-arf.com
> >> >> >>> >> -- 
> >> >> >>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> >> >>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> >> >>> >> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 - Release
Date:
> >> >> >>> >> 11/10/2006
> >> >> >>> >>
> >> >> >>> >>
> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >> >>> >
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