[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

george w. kennie geobet at gis.net
Mon Nov 13 10:12:47 AKST 2006 

Once again, it's easy for me to opine on the side of Mr. Black. In my book, 
it goes to "baseline preservation".   But then again, I learn over and over 
again in this forum that there are ways to present things outside of the 
realm of logic that are completely acceptable to the masses. When we have 
schedules in hand without the descriptors or Aresti's we are banging our 
heads against the wall.
G.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8


>I agree that the downgrade is lenient, this didn't escape my attention.
> However, I'm not sure by what other criteria/rule one would downgrade a 
> loss
> of altitude.  Perhaps Don could help here.
>
> Keep in mind that the 15 foot drop you mention may not appear as much of a
> drop depending on the height of the plane and box positioning during the
> drop. I'll be honest, right or wrong, if I'm in the chair and I see a
> noticeable drop I'll take 1/2 point, if it's really obvious drop I'd take 
> 1
> pt. Maybe I'm wrong, this is a good time to set me straight and level  ;-) 
> .
>
> OK Lance, so if you're judging Sportsman and you see the plane drop 20 
> feet
> on the straight flight out as it flies from one end of the box to the 
> other,
> how would you score it. By your definition seems like you have to give it 
> a
> 10 since the error would only be around 3 to 4 degrees.
>
> Keith Black
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>
>
>> I don't think the rules support your claim that the 15m entry/exit is a
>> minimum.  I think you have just made up your own rule to downgrade at 1
>> point per 15.  However, this is very lenient downgrading because to get a
> 1
>> point downgrade by descending or ascending at 15 degrees, over a 100m
>> distance, the plane would change altitude by 77 ft.  A pilot changing
>> altitude by 15 ft or so would only be making a 3 degree error.  (note: 
>> the
>> box width at 150 meters is 600 meters).
>>
>> Therefore, if I  lose 15 ft of altitude as I fly from the end of the
> reverse
>> cuban into the stall turn (manuvers 1 and 2) this should hardly register
> as
>> a downgrade.
>>
>> --Lance
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>>
>>
>> >I agree with Don's description on the maneuver, this makes perfect sense
> to
>> > me. However, I really don't think it matters if you visualize the 
>> > center
>> > or
>> > the first corner as the start because IMO any deviation in track,
> altitude
>> > change or wing bobble approaching the eight, whether 15 m or greater
> from
>> > the theoretical start of the eight is grounds for downgrade.
>> >
>> > This thinking goes to what Lance was discussing as "no man's land". I'm
>> > not
>> > sure there is such a thing, I've always thought of the 15 m entry line
> as
>> > a
>> > minimum.
>> >
>> > Let's take an example. A pilot comes out of the Humpty Bump prior to 
>> > the
>> > figure eight and draws a 15 m straight line. Then they start loosing
>> > altitude and continue dropping until 15 m before center (Lance's
>> > theoretical
>> > no man's land). I for one would deduct points from the eight based on
> the
>> > 15
>> > degree rule. I don't think the spirit of the rules is "anything goes",
> or
>> > "it's not so bad" as long as it's not 15 m before a maneuver starts. If
>> > one
>> > does score this way then the pilot that keeps a perfect line between
> these
>> > two maneuvers will not be rewarded for doing a better job.
>> >
>> > Keith Black
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:07 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >
>> >
>> >> Don,
>> >>
>> >> Since it is the point of this list to be nitpicky, let me say that 
>> >> when
>> > the
>> >> plane is inverted at center it is at a point that it will never return
>> >> to,
>> >> therefore the actual center can not be the start of the manuver.
>> >> Granted,
>> >> the center is part of the straight line that begins and ends all
>> >> manuvers,
>> >> but it is not part of the actual figure 8.  So to be complete, judging
>> >> starts 15m before the exit of the final radius and ends 15m after this
>> >> point. This encompases the center but is not the actual beginning and
>> >> ending.
>> >>
>> >> As for Stuart's comment, I think any downgrade applied to what the
>> > airplane
>> >> does when it is in "no man's land" falls in the smoothness and
>> > Gracefulness
>> >> category and should be minimal.  ("no man's land" exists between some
>> >> manuvers that are far apart where the prior manuver and its 15m exit
> line
>> >> end, but there is a long space before the 15m entry line of the next
>> >> manuver.)
>> >>
>> >> --Lance
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Don Ramsey (CoxNet)" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:40 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Lance,
>> >> >
>> >> > I believe it starts at center. Straight line before center and start
> at
>> >> > center.  The reason I say that is rule 14.1 which says "Each time 
>> >> > the
>> >> > model
>> >> > passes before the judges, a maneuver is executed, except after
> takeoff
>> > and
>> >> > landing."  Of course, some maneuvers start before center as the slow
>> > roll,
>> >> > etc. As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.
>> >> >
>> >> > Don
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> > From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:16 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Lance
>> >> >> You will have to have a entry line before the push to vertical past
>> >> >> center.This is where I think it starts... at the start of the entry
>> > line.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jim Ivey
>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
>> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:51 PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> OK,so where does the manuver begin and end?  At center, the radius
>> > after
>> >> >>> center, at the first corner initiation?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --Lance
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >>> From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>> >> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:06 PM
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> > Jason
>> >> >>> > The way we are flying the 8 is enter inverted and 1st loop
>> >> >>> > (outside)
>> >> >>> > to
>> >> >>> > the
>> >> >>> > right of center and next (inside) loop to the left of center.The
>> > first
>> >> >>> > loop
>> >> >>> > is outside loop and 1st vertical segment starts past center.Of
>> > course
>> >> >> swap
>> >> >>> > left and right for opposite flying direction.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Jim Ivey
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >>> > From: "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
>> >> >>> > To: "NSRCA" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:08 PM
>> >> >>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >> Hi All,
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Does the Square horizontal 8 start at center or just past
> center?
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Regards,
>> >> >>> >> Jason
>> >> >>> >> www.jasonshulman.com
>> >> >>> >> www.shulmanaviation.com
>> >> >>> >> www.composite-arf.com
>> >> >>> >> -- 
>> >> >>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> >> >>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> >>> >> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 - Release Date:
>> >> >>> >> 11/10/2006
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
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