[NSRCA-discussion] klipped to repost.. Snap
Ed Alt
ed_alt at hotmail.com
Fri Jul 7 16:17:17 AKDT 2006
Jim:
You can do a conical tail swirl without ever snapping the airplane. On the other hand, it is a physical impossibility to do a snap without some displacement occuring. Whether you can fool a judge into thinking it didn't happen is a different question.
This is one of the things that IMAC has figured out and defined better than we have in Pattern. For better or worse, snaps are something that most IMAC pilots and at least some judges live and breath. They actually do have a much better handle on what is involved and what to look for with a real snap. Not that it's perfect there either. Snap cheats abound, but their description and judging criteria are better defined and more closely take into account the real world physics that are going on when you try to demonstrate one. Getting some things defined well takes time, I guess this is destined to be one of those things.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Woodward
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] klipped to repost.. Snap
Hi Del,
Thanks for sharing your comments. A break in "pitch" is not the same as a break in "flight-path." A break in "pitch" (and roll and yaw) initiate the snap - a break in "flight-path" simply indicates that the plane flew off the line and should be downgraded 1 pt/15 deg.. Looking for the conical rotation of the tail/nose is a good thing, as this can be observed while the snap is in process and must be present for it to be a snap. Examining the post maneuver flight-path deviation is not an indicator a snap took place - it just indicates the flight-path was deviated - again, downgrade. It is not the pilot's job to defy the judge's expectation of aircraft performance - it's the pilot's job to fly the maneuver and retain as many points as possible. In my opinion the conical rotation of the tail is a far better overall indicator that a snap is taking place, than attempting to disassociate the flight axis and say, "X must happen before Y, and flight path must be deviated" for the pilot to demonstrate he snap rolled his plane. This conflicts with the other scoring elements of the maneuver. It is possible to break in pitch and not break the flight-path in a significant way or at all.
Thanks,
Jim W.
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del K. Rykert
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:04 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] klipped to repost.. Snap
George and all...
Not to step on anyone's toes and many opinions are flying... Some are very erroneous...
I have my opinion and have to stick with what I feel is the correct way to address snaps.
I follow what is written in the rule book.. end of story... Part of the ambiguity stems from different aircraft and different pilots use different inputs to produce their maneuver. It is left up to us judges to score what we see based on the Don Ramsey or the rule book has said. Has nothing to do with what a full scale snap may look like.. has nothing to do with what a 1/3rd or 1.4 scale snap may look like.. Different breed of cat and visually appear different... IMHO..
If someone was able to produce a visual file of what is and what is not acceptable might help some.. Part of the problem we as humans are expected to process visually and mentally what occurs often in less than 1 sec for the meat of the maneuver and some are going to not see some flaws when so much of the maneuver occurs is so a small space and time. Heaven forbid if a judge blinks or gets teary eyed from wind at moment of execution. I have been fooled by some and gave a score.. I try my darndest to catch all those that try to fool me. I am only human but a very hard nosed judge. Does that mean we shouldn't have the snap in the schedule? I myself think that is a pretty drastic reaction.
I try to follow what I was taught at judging seminars. focus on CG of aircraft. A definite break in flight path has to occur if a true snap occurred. I defy anyone to show me how and airplane.. any airplane can do a true snap and at least not have had some degree of break in flight path.. Correct me if I am all wet ... Also the tail should show some conical movement along with the break.. have to be careful to not confuse some that do a barrel roll but still have a little conical movement of tail.. I have seen it done.. and they received their appropriate goose egg.
Nothing is written about the aircraft speed being a judging factor... before during or after the snap..
stepping down..
Del
nsrca - 473
----- Original Message -----
From: george w. kennie
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
I have received several e-mails from some very accomplished pilots who have indicated that they are perplexed regarding the requirements regarding the proper execution of the snap maneuver. Specifically what needs to be shown to the judge in order to score well. Even among the judging community there is a lack of consensus with many misunderstandings of what constitutes a "break" and recognizing the stalled condition and heaven forbid, the auto-rotation.
It is apparent that a standard needs to be adopted that will once and for all end the individualized interpretations being submitted from all quarters (mine included).
If indeed there is a correct process involved to bring about the proper execution of this maneuver, then it should be possible for the people responsible for handing down the final definitives, to single out the pilot who consistantly performs this maneuver to the precise satisfaction of their judging criteria and have the performance video-taped and made part of the NSRCA web-site and eliminate the confusion.
This will enable anyone to visit the web-site, observe the process, and come away with the full knowledge of how to (as Robert Gainey says) score TENS !
Yeah, Me.......(who else?)
----- Original Message -----
From: Tommy Scarmardo
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
George,
Kinda like when the judges tell us to slow down, we're flying too fast !
tommy s
"george w. kennie" <geobet at gis.net> wrote:
John,
I think I have a problem with #1.
I think the pilot's responsibility is to perform the maneuver correctly.
The Judges responsibility is to know what a correctly performed maneuver
looks like and then to score it accurately.
The pilot has no responsibility to satisfy a judge who may be inept.
G.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Ferrell"
To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
> >From my point of view:
> 1. It remains the pilot's responsibility to satisfy the judges.
> 2. What is and is not a snap is defined by our rules.
> 3. All airplanes do not snap alike, see #1.
> 4. "Burying the Snap" by over controlling will eventually put you in a
> situation that will score poorly.
>
> IMHO:
> Those of us with a chronic problem of over controlling usually wind up
> selecting control travel limits based on what it takes to snap and spin.
> Those with the gift of fine motor control can get away with more sensitive
> controls.
>
> John Ferrell W8CCW
> "My Competition is not my enemy"
> http://DixieNC.US
>
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