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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You can do a conical tail swirl without ever
snapping the airplane. On the other hand, it is a physical impossibility
to do a snap without some displacement occuring. Whether you can fool a
judge into thinking it didn't happen is a different question.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is one of the things that IMAC has figured out
and defined better than we have in Pattern. For better or worse, snaps are
something that most IMAC pilots and at least some judges live and breath.
They actually do have a much better handle on what is involved and what to look
for with a real snap. Not that it's perfect there either. Snap
cheats abound, but their description and judging criteria are better
defined and more closely take into account the real world physics that are going
on when you try to demonstrate one. Getting some things defined well takes
time, I guess this is destined to be one of those things.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jim.woodward@schroth.com href="mailto:jim.woodward@schroth.com">Jim
Woodward</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 07, 2006 11:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] klipped
to repost.. Snap</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State>,
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks for sharing
your comments. A break in “pitch” is not the same as a break in
“flight-path.” A break in “pitch” (and roll and yaw) initiate the snap –
a break in “flight-path” simply indicates that the plane flew off the line and
should be downgraded 1 pt/15 deg.. Looking for the conical rotation of
the tail/nose is a good thing, as this can be observed while the snap is in
process and must be present for it to be a snap. Examining the post
maneuver flight-path deviation is not an indicator a snap took place – it just
indicates the flight-path was deviated – again, downgrade. It is not the
pilot’s job to defy the judge’s expectation of aircraft performance – it’s the
pilot’s job to fly the maneuver and retain as many points as possible.
In my opinion the conical rotation of the tail is a far better overall
indicator that a snap is taking place, than attempting to disassociate
the flight axis and say, “X must happen before Y, and flight path must be
deviated” for the pilot to demonstrate he snap rolled his plane. This
conflicts with the other scoring elements of the maneuver.
It is possible to break in pitch and not break the
flight-path in a significant way or at all.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
W.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Del K. Rykert<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, July 07, 2006 11:04
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] klipped to
repost.. Snap</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">George and
all...</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Not to step on
anyone's toes and many opinions are flying... Some are very erroneous...
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> I have my
opinion and have to stick with what I feel is the correct way to address
snaps. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> I follow what
is written in the rule book.. end of story... Part of the
ambiguity stems from different aircraft and different pilots use different
inputs to produce their maneuver. It is left up to us judges to score
what we see based on the Don Ramsey or the rule book has said. Has
nothing to do with what a full scale snap may look like.. has nothing to
do with what a 1/3rd or 1.4 scale snap may look like.. Different breed
of cat and visually appear different... IMHO..
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> If someone was
able to produce a visual file of what is and what is not acceptable might help
some.. Part of the problem we as humans are expected to process visually
and mentally what occurs often in less than 1 sec for the meat of the maneuver
and some are going to not see some flaws when so much of the maneuver occurs
is so a small space and time. Heaven forbid if a judge blinks or gets
teary eyed from wind at moment of execution. I have been fooled by some
and gave a score.. I try my darndest to catch all those that try to fool
me. I am only human but a very hard nosed judge. Does that mean we
shouldn't have the snap in the schedule? I myself think that is a
pretty drastic reaction. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> I try to follow
what I was taught at judging seminars. focus on CG of aircraft. A
definite break in flight path has to occur if a true snap occurred. I
defy anyone to show me how and airplane.. any airplane can do a true snap and
at least not have had some degree of break in flight path.. Correct me
if I am all wet ... Also the tail should show some conical movement
along with the break.. have to be careful to not confuse some that
do a barrel roll but still have a little conical movement of tail.. I
have seen it done.. and they received their appropriate goose egg.
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Nothing is
written about the aircraft speed being a judging factor... before during or
after the snap.. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> stepping
down.. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State>
<BR> nsrca -
473</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Wednesday, July 05, 2006 7:20 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have received several e-mails
from some very accomplished pilots who have indicated that they are
perplexed regarding the requirements regarding the proper execution of the
snap maneuver. Specifically what needs to be shown to the judge in order to
score well. Even among the judging community there is a lack of consensus
with many misunderstandings of what constitutes a "break" and recognizing
the stalled condition and heaven forbid, the
auto-rotation.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is apparent that a standard
needs to be adopted that will once and for all end the individualized
interpretations being submitted from all quarters (mine
included).</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If indeed there is a correct
process involved to bring about the proper execution of this maneuver, then
it should be possible for the people responsible for handing down the final
definitives, to single out the pilot who consistantly performs this maneuver
to the precise satisfaction of their judging criteria and have the
performance video-taped and made part of the NSRCA web-site and eliminate
the confusion.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This will enable anyone to visit
the web-site, observe the process, and come away with the full knowledge of
how to (as Robert Gainey says) score TENS
!</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Yeah, Me.......(who
else?) </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=tretas513@yahoo.com href="mailto:tretas513@yahoo.com">Tommy
Scarmardo</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Tuesday, July 04, 2006 2:38 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Snap<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">George,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kinda like when the judges tell us to slow down,
we're flying too fast !<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">tommy s<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">"george w. kennie" <<A
href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">geobet@gis.net</A>></SPAN></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>John,<BR>I think I have a problem with
#1.<BR>I think the pilot's responsibility is to perform the maneuver
correctly.<BR>The Judges responsibility is to know what a correctly
performed maneuver <BR>looks like and then to score it
accurately.<BR>The pilot has no responsibility to satisfy a judge who
may be inept.<BR>G.<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR>From: "John Ferrell" <BR><JOHNFERRELL@EARTHLINK.NET>To:
"<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>"
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:20
AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap<BR><BR><BR>> >From my
point of view:<BR>> 1. It remains the pilot's responsibility to
satisfy the judges.<BR>> 2. What is and is not a snap is defined by
our rules.<BR>> 3. All airplanes do not snap alike, see #1.<BR>>
4. "Burying the Snap" by over controlling will eventually put you in
a<BR>> situation that will score poorly.<BR>><BR>>
IMHO:<BR>> Those of us with a chronic problem of over controlling
usually wind up<BR>> selecting control travel limits based on what it
takes to snap and spin.<BR>> Those with the gift of fine motor
control can get away with more sensitive<BR>>
controls.<BR>><BR>> John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>> "My Competition is
not my enemy"<BR>>
http://DixieNC.US<BR>><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>