[NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations

Mon Jul 3 11:09:24 AKDT 2006

Me too. No break.  Quick roll with excess rudder. A zero from my chair.

NICE photograpy though...

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "George Miller" <glmiller3 at cox.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations

>
>
> Am I missing something here?  Those just don't look like snap rolls to me!
>
> G
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim Woodward" <jim.woodward at schroth.com>
> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>
>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> http://www.aircraftstudiodesign.com/pittspython/gallery.php
>>
>> Regarding snaps, take a look at this video page of the new Pitts 
>> bi-plane.
>> There are links to a "vertical snap" video, and a "double snap" on take
>> off
>> video.  The angle of each video is great.  The pilot is kind enough to
>> have
>> the smoke on during the takeoff snaps.  These videos just demonstrate to
>> me
>> that the model community is getting way too picky in trying to state that
>> the plane must do "x" before it does "y" to receive max points.  In a
>> practical sense the closer the pilot is to getting a 10 or
>> "maintaining-track" during a snap, the closer he is to getting a zero or
>> at
>> least severely downgraded, primarily because the judges are instructed to
>> look for an over exaggerated criteria of "pitch-break" first.  The loop 
>> of
>> pilot control input, plane's reaction, and judge perception (or grading 
>> of
>> maneuver observation based on this staggered snap judging criteria), is
>> different for each skill level of pilot and skill level of judge.  Also,
>> the
>> judging criteria seems to lock in a particular single sequence of
>> transmitter usage (IE, elevator first then other inputs). Does that mean
>> that any pilot that uses a snap button - which inputs all control inputs
>> at
>> once, automatically receives a severe downgrade?  Should there be a rule
>> to
>> outlaw snap buttons?  Also, the faster the pilot can input the elevator
>> then
>> other controls, correspondingly reduces the effect the judges are
>> instructed
>> to look for (IE, pitch break first). Also, there seems to be a belief by
>> some that you cannot perform a good snap roll without deviating the 
>> line -
>> (IE, someone states "...I know it was a snap because you had to correct
>> the
>> line afterward).  Thus, to my reading, there exists conflicting
>> judging/scoring criteria for this maneuver.  What is also neglected in 
>> the
>> current definition is that where it states 'speed of the snap is not a
>> judging criteria' (seemingly intented to protect folks who want to 
>> perform
>> a
>> docile slowly rotating snap) however - judges are quick to say - 
>> "...pilot
>> uses is too much aileron".  Is 45 degrees of aileron throw too much?
>>
>> I personally like what has happened to clarify the spins and hope a
>> similar
>> approach can be taken or is underway with the snap definition.  My 
>> opinion
>> has changed a bit on this particular topic as I started flying sequences
>> that require more of these maneuvers to be done.  If you spend a lot of
>> time
>> practicing them on straight lines, 45s, and looping maneuver 
>> (avalanches),
>> the conversation quickly moves from theoretical to practical.  The snaps
>> in
>> these two video links would be severally downgraded or zeroed according 
>> to
>> the precision aerobatics definitions.  Food for thought.  Not about me,
>> just
>> about the snap definition and critera.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jim W.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey
>> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:27 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>>
>> A slow roll is acceptable.
>>
>> DR
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ed Miller" <edbon85 at charter.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 3:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>>
>>
>>> Concerning the Master schedule 1/2 loop with full roll out.  Is a slow
>>> roll
>>> acceptable on the full roll out or must it be a fast axial roll ??
>>> Ed M.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Don Ramsey" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:54 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>>>
>>>
>>>> Adam,
>>>>
>>>> 404-2:    The stall turn must be in the direction of flight.
>>>> 404-7:    The humpty is defined as 1/4 roll up and 3/4 roll down.
>>>> That's
>>>> 3/4 down and not 3 of 4.
>>>> 404-12:  Slow roll should be a minimum of 3 seconds
>>>> 404-18:  AMA rule on snaps is on page 78 of the rulebook.  You can get
>>>> to
>>>> the rulebook through the judging site where the Powerpoint 
>>>> presentations
>>>> are
>>>> found.  But in a nutshell:
>>>> 1. Since the maneuver is defined as a stall maneuver (initiated by a
>>>> rapid
>>>> stall of the wing induced by a change in pitch attitude), the nose of
>>>> the
>>>> fuselage should show a definite break from the flight path in the
>>>> direction
>>>> of the snap (positive or negative) while the track closely maintains 
>>>> the
>>>> flight path. The track visualized as the path of the Center of Gravity
>>>> (CG)
>>>> should ideally follow the geometric flight path of the maneuver while
>>>> the
>>>> nose and tail autorotate through opposite helical arcs around the 
>>>> flight
>>>> path. A snap  that does not show a break and stall to initiate the 
>>>> snap,
>>>> but
>>>> does enter a stalled attitude during the maneuver is severely
>>>> downgraded.
>>>>
>>>> So
>>>> * lack of a definite break of the nose is not a zero but severe
>>>> downgrade
>>>> * track of CG should ideally follow the geometry of the maneuver for 
>>>> max
>>>> points
>>>> Other Points:
>>>> * Barrel roll or axial roll is a zero
>>>> * Speed of snap is not a judging criteria
>>>> * Airspeed may decrease in the snap with no downgrade
>>>> * If model is roll to a finish the downgrade is applied using 1 pt per
>>>> 15
>>>> degree rule.
>>>>
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Adam Glatt" <adam.g at sasktel.net>
>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Good stuff, Don.  These are very helpful for learning a schedule that
>>>>> you don't fly.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a few questions about judging Masters that I recommend should 
>>>>> be
>>>>> answered on the presentation.
>>>>>
>>>>> 404-2:  Does the stall turn itself have to rotate in the upwind
>>>>> direction?
>>>>> 404-7:  There seems to be an option here, but 2of2 has the same name 
>>>>> as
>>>>> 1of2, though the Arrestis are different.
>>>>> 404-12:  What is the rule book definition of 'slow?'
>>>>> 404-18:  The rulebook definition/description of a snap?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Adam
>>>>>
>>>>> Don Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> For those who may be judging Advanced, Masters, P-07 and especially
>>>>>> F3A wednesday judges for F-07 there are PowerPoint presentations on
>>>>>> the NSRCA judging page
>>>>>> http://www.nsrca.org/competition/judging/judging.htm.  Look for the
>>>>>> link near the bottom of the Judging Home Page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
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